Water questions 2019

[The Captain!!]

Thought I’d start this bad boy up too. 

Im going to have plenty to ask about in the next coming weeks. 

Getting my water tested at a lab. I’ve got some of the results back and will get the rest by the end of the week. 

[Titan]

Will follow this one. I have a PH meter but never changed water profile based on a reading. I like dark beers and have heard its not so important.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Water pH doesn't really matter anyway, it's mash pH that's important. A general idea with dark beers is to use water with a moderate to high carbonate content. This provides an added buffer against the dark roasted grains dropping the mash pH too far. 

I generally aim for a mash pH around 5.2-5.4 for light coloured beers and around 5.6 for the dark ones. I use a combination of water chemistry and the malt grist to achieve it. 

[PaddyBrew2]

I used a Brita filter for my last batch and it tastes so much better. I googled it beforehand and there is some study’s done on the filter and how it removes the hardness And deionises it

 

was a bit of a pain filling a 20 litre container though with a 1 litre jug 

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi Paddy, I filtered 20L once too.  Once.

[The Captain!!]

I use a under sink filter. Our water is pretty poor to drink if it’s not filtered so this is why I’m getting the water tested to show what my brewing water is like once it takes out all the bits and pieces. 

[Hairy]

I have an under the sink filter too. I use both kitchen taps to speed things up so I use a combination of filtered water and tap water.

But my water additions are based on my tap water report so I guess it really isn't correct. The beer tastes OK so I'm not concerned.

[Malter White]

40 minutes ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I use a under sink filter. Our water is pretty poor to drink if it’s not filtered so this is why I’m getting the water tested to show what my brewing water is like once it takes out all the bits and pieces. 

You're in Adelaide too if I remember rightly. An under sink filter is a must IMO. I personally wouldn't go to the trouble of testing my water but even my not so refined taste buds can tell there's a distinct difference in the taste of tap vs filtered water here.

[Mark D Pirate]

Water chemistry makes a very real difference to beer , not just in mash performance but in flavour and mouthfeel. 

I couldn't produce pilsners until I switched to rain water and

For the Adelaide based brewers here the next brew club meeting has a presentation on water,  usually club presentations cover from basics to intermediate level .

Not sure who's doing it but will be interesting .

Meetings are usually  the third Wednesday of the month at the Wheatsheaf hotel starting at 7 .

Come down and say hi 

[The Captain!!]

4 hours ago, MUZZY said:

You're in Adelaide too if I remember rightly. 

Sorry Muzzy, I’m in West Australia. I lived for a few years in good ol Port Lincoln. But have spent quite a lot of time in and around Adelaide. 

3 hours ago, Mark D Pirate said:

Water chemistry makes a very real difference to beer , not just in mash performance but in flavour and mouthfeel. 

I’m really looking forward to changing my profile to suit styles. And will provide tasting notes in each when I can.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yep, can confirm with pilsners being the one I noticed it most in. It has improved my pale ales as well but I did brew a batch of pils with straight tap water once just to see what difference my usual distilled water with small mineral additions made. The beer was ok but the ones done with really soft water are much better. Needless to say I never bothered doing another one with straight tap water. 

From playing around I've found the only recipe that straight tap water suits the best is my red ale. I played around with chemistry on it but the ones done with tap water were the best. 

[The Captain!!]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

From playing around I've found the only recipe that straight tap water suits the best is my red ale. I played around with chemistry on it but the ones done with tap water were the best. 

That’s pretty interesting. Good find right there. 

When I finally get my results from the lab, I’ll post them in this thread. 

Its only been 2 weeks since I’ve given them the water but it’s seem to have taken them forever. 

[Olemate]

My question isn't exactly on track with the current discussion, but water related all the same. I have established that our local water authority doses our town water with Chloroamines in lieu of Chlorine. I've read here, somewhere, that Campden tablets can be used to remove Chloroamines. How much/many tablet(s) are necessary to treat a 23l brew? I'm keen to give this a go to see whether it has a noticeable effect on my brews.

Mark

[The Captain!!]

7 minutes ago, Olemate said:

My question isn't exactly on track with the current discussion, but water related all the same. I have established that our local water authority doses our town water with Chloroamines in lieu of Chlorine. I've read here, somewhere, that Campden tablets can be used to remove Chloroamines. How much/many tablet(s) are necessary to treat a 23l brew? I'm keen to give this a go to see whether it has a noticeable effect on my brews.

Mark

Great question olemate. That’s what this thread was all about.

Other guys will be able to confirm but I thought 1 was suffice.

[karlos_1984]

I'm in Adelaide too. Have never brewed with straight tap water. My last house had a puratap, that was gold. Used it for every batch. 

I've since moved, no puratap and have used the 1 ltr filter jug things you've all mentioned. I've filled 20 odd ltrs into sanitised juice or soft drink bottles over a few days before brewing. PITA.

If time permits and I'm going into town for something else anyway, I take my 25ltr cube to the red tin brewery and fill it there with their RO water fountain. Costs about $4 and it makes good beer. Saves me time and goes to charity too, so win win.

[Otto Von Blotto]

One campden tablet is enough for a batch. They don't dissolve easily though, which is why I went with the powder. You can use either sodium or potassium metabisulphite. 

You may not notice any difference if you're not already tasting bandaids in your beer but preventing the risk of it occurring at all is never a bad thing.

[Olemate]

Thanks guys, one tablet it is!I have a very small mortar and pessel and intend to add to the brew water, before chilling, the night before putting the brew down. I guess that overdosing isn't  an issue?

Mark

[Otto Von Blotto]

It shouldn't be with one tablet but you wouldn't add any more. 

[The Captain!!]

So I haven’t got my results back yet. I’ve feel like I’ve been waiting for waaaaay too long.

Think I’m going to have to go sh!t in someone’s letterbox to get things movin’

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

10 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

have to go sh!t in someone’s letterbox to get things movin’

Get it moving first, then go do the deed!

[headmaster]

On 2/28/2019 at 1:34 PM, Olemate said:

My question isn't exactly on track with the current discussion, but water related all the same. I have established that our local water authority doses our town water with Chloroamines in lieu of Chlorine. I've read here, somewhere, that Campden tablets can be used to remove Chloroamines. How much/many tablet(s) are necessary to treat a 23l brew? I'm keen to give this a go to see whether it has a noticeable effect on my brews.

Mark

I posted some info in this one about this 

 

 

There is another thread on the forum that has input from a chemist who works with a water authority who did confirm that you really only need a tiny amount of sodium met or potassium met. 

Like I say in my post, it might actually be better to use sodium ascorbate or pure Vit c. Less toxic to store and use and may have same effect. 

I forget how many mg of sodium or potassium met is in a campden tab but I think between 400 and 500mg. 

This is actually enough to remove 3ppm of chloromines from 100 litres of water. 

So in theory you should use say half a to a third of a tab to treat the 30 litres or so you may use to brew. 

That will break down into about 2mg per litre of sodium chloride, or table salt in addition to what is already in the water. 

If you use the whole tab, the effect will be to end up with probably an additional 4mg of salt per litre. 

Sydney water where I am has 15mg per litre of salt, so adding an extra 2 or 4 mg will not affect the flavour. 

I usually use pure sodium met to treat my strike water to remove up to 3ppm chloromines in my water. I use about 4mg/l so I usually measure out 80mg on my hop scales. 

That is a tiny pinch of the stuff. Chloramines will usually be less than 1mg/litre in sydney water, but may be higher than that if there's been big storms that may require additional disinfectant in the water. So that tiny pinch is also probably overkill. 

 

 

 

[The Captain!!]

Good info there headmaster.

[headmaster]

This is the thread I was thinking of earlier, very good background provided by a water engineer 'Ash" starting at the bottom of this thread 

 

[headmaster]

Actually just re-read what Ash had posted back there in 2017. Looks like I've probably been underdosing if Sydney Water were to use max dose of chloromines. 

Ash says in that thread "Sodium metabisulphite (SMBS) or potassium metabisulphite (camden tablets) are probably the best way to knock out chloramine. There are other ways that are effective for chlorine but they are really slow for chloramine The SMBS reaction should take place by the time you've mixed it in. General rule of thumb is 3ppm of SMBS to remove 1ppm of chlorine."

I had somehow got it into my head that 4mg/L of SMBS would remove up to 3ppm chlorine or Chloromine. That would only remove about 1.5ppm (which is what is generaly in Sydney water) 

So reading some more of what Ash wrote, the levels can be up to max allowable 3ppm of chlorine or Chloromine. the usuall levels of chloromine in sydney water 

From Ryde Water Analysis  Table 3 Treated water quality characteristics at Prospect Water Filtration Plant – quarterly results  

Characteristics: monochloramine  Quarterly - 1 July 2018 to 30 Sept 2018

Min : 1.58mg/L

Ave 1.63mg/L

Max 1.68mg/L

 

 

So looks like I have been underdosing for worst case. To cover for this worst case maximum chloromine level of 3ppm in times when the water authority has cranked up the disinfectant, I should be dosing around 9ppm of Sodium Metabisulphite per litre. 

So for my 30L strike water this would be 30X9= 270mg of SMBS,  Close enough to 1/4 of a gram.  This is also roughly half a campden tab. 

[joolbag]

Headmaster, your brain and skill with numbers is such an asset to this forum! Thanks for this. It confirms I have been doing the right dosage. I picked it up from this forum I think.

 

I roughly shave a campden tablet with a knife until it There is about half left and split that between my mash kettle and my sparge urn (long story but I have a small 1V so can't full volume mash. Have to sparge).

 

I find shaving with a knife is quicker and less equipment than getting out my brewing mortar and pestle. Like Kelsey said, it's a small cost and time.investment for peace of mind. I've had two chlorine phenolic- affected brews and never want to taste that again!