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Hop questions 2019


Titan
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As far as I know dry hopping doesn't add IBUs, these are a measurement of isomerised alpha acids. Isomerisation doesn't happen at ferment temps. If there is some new information about it I'd be interested to read it though.

That's not to say that dry hops can't add a bit of perceived bitterness but I wouldn't have a clue how much to add to get something that tasted like 25 IBUs. It'd be quite a waste of hops I'd imagine though.

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Just had a quick read on the Isomerisation of alpha acids ... interesting stuff ...  so now for a question ... if hop boils add to bitterness due to isomerisation of alpha acids so hop steeps/teas will add no bitterness at all just aroma,  and the aroma will not degrade with aging as bitterness does, is that correct? 

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12 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Aroma goes first, then flavour, then bitterness. That's why hoppy beers are better drunk young. 

Dry hopping I think adds perceived bitterness but it doesn't add any IBUs as far as I know. 

If dry hopping lowers the pH ... then it would add to bitterness through the addition of beta acids as acids have a low pH ... however the hops would have to be very strong to lower the pH a significant amount ... 

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24 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Which is probably the case, but since these acids aren't isomerised they don't contribute to the IBU figure. At least, that's the current information. 

Yep got that from the article I read. The catalyst for the isomerisation reaction is heat ... must be  80C or over ...  who would have though chemistry 101 would have been of so much benefit ...  

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There has been new research that shows dry hopping does add bitterness. I won't try to act like I am the professional here so it is better if you read part 4 and 5 of this article posted by Titan. Pretty interesting and really does back up what probably a few have experienced already.  It makes sense, hops are bitter and no matter how you use them some bitterness will be extracted. 

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/?fbclid=IwAR21mhWNL2_kQ_-6-o99q1rSEQGKAvgGClsklo3JY4Mes5dz3IL9SvzdMOA

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1 minute ago, Norris! said:

There has been new research that shows dry hopping does add bitterness. I won't try to act like I am the professional here so it is better if you read part 4 and 5 of this article posted by Titan. Pretty interesting and really does back up what probably a few have experienced already.  It makes sense, hops are bitter and no matter how you use them some bitterness will be extracted. 

https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/?fbclid=IwAR21mhWNL2_kQ_-6-o99q1rSEQGKAvgGClsklo3JY4Mes5dz3IL9SvzdMOA

I was looking for that link beforehand. Good on ya Norris.

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9 hours ago, Rowbrew said:

I read somewhere a while ago that dry hopping in large amounts does in fact add bitterness. So heres my question,  how much dry hops would i need to bitter a mid strength session ale to around 25 IBUs?

Will add bitterness but quantity needed will be extreme. Think about a small hop tea to add the bitterness you require.

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Hydromers measure gravity.  Thermometers measure temperature. Scales measure weight

 

what measures IBU’s?

i mean the software tells us what the ibus should be based on the alpha acid of the hop plus water temperature plus time in said water. But is there any dongle you can stick into the beer to read what the IBUs are ?

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2 hours ago, Norris! said:

There has been new research that shows dry hopping does add bitterness.

I don't buy into that theory whatsoever. 

Leave vegetal matter in contact with liquid for long enough & most leave an astringent liquid behind that has a "puckering" effect that mimics the bittering aspects of boiled hops for longer periods. Think cabbage & water left in a saucepan for a while & the taste of the resultant liquid afterwards. The longer contact time dry hops are left in contact with beer/wort, the more obvious & forward this astringent/puckering character will be. I dry hop for no more than 3-4 days deliberately & experience little of this in my hoppy beers.

If dry hopping added bitterness, then why isn't there a notable commercial/craft beer that is purely bittered from dry hops? Hmmm... 🤔

If there is such a beer, I'd like to taste it. However, I'm not aware of such a beer.

If you want to create enough of this puckering/astringent aspect in a beer without using a boiled, isomerized hop to create bitterness, then you'd likely need some MASSIVE amount of dry hops to mimic (& I do mean mimic) the bitterness associated with conventional long boiled hops & leave them in contact with the wort/beer for a decent amount of time. Even then, I'd still be doubtful of the final outcome.

For those that believe so firmly in the theory, why not take the plunge & brew one exclusively dry hopped for this bitterness you believe it produces. 😉

Good luck with that,

Lusty.

 

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Funny even when a scientist gives his research and I have experienced it  still people are like I don't believe it? Oh well that is why we brew, to make our styles the way we want.

As for bittering with just a dry hop, I remember several on this forum advocating a 60 min boil over flameout and shorter boils due to needing a firm bitterness but now we see that is not needed either. Look I don't know what else to say except it was researched by a scientist and I have experienced it. I AM not saying you should bitter with just a dry hop but it does affect bitterness. If you don't buy that research no sweat off my back but don't fill people's heads with YOUR opinion when scientists have said otherwise, that is my main point. Now if you have research to disprove this article or my experience then share it.

That might sound a little harsh, don't take it offensively, just matter of factly, and I am short on time.

Norris

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7 hours ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

Hydromers measure gravity.  Thermometers measure temperature. Scales measure weight

 

what measures IBU’s?

i mean the software tells us what the ibus should be based on the alpha acid of the hop plus water temperature plus time in said water. But is there any dongle you can stick into the beer to read what the IBUs are ?

A spectrometer. Check out this write up of a guy doing it at home, pretty interesting stuff.

https://phdinbeer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/phdinbeer.com/2014/09/16/beer-chemistry-1-measuring-ibus-in-beer/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fphdinbeer.com%2F2014%2F09%2F16%2Fbeer-chemistry-1-measuring-ibus-in-beer%2F

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Nice article Blacksands and it really highlights the fact that not all bitterness comes from alpha acids but also from the other parts of the hop, but not as strongly with a 65% bittering rate when compared to the AA, if I remember that stat correctly from the article.

A measurement is simply that, if we are only measuring alpha acids and not all the attributes that lead to bitterness then are we really knowing the actual level of TRUE bitterness?

We do know that high cohumulene levels can bring a harsh bitterness, it only makes sense that these attributes would correlate to bitterness in the glass also, but until recently there was no scientific evidence to back up what was perceived, so we had to bite our tongues and defer to the experts, due to lack of information.

 

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For the guys that have experienced an increase in bitterness from dry hopping, how did you know this was the case? If you dry hopped the whole batch then there is nothing to compare it to. You can't really compare it to a previous batch of the same recipe as there are a lot of variables that impact bitterness. I'm talking about the perceived bitterness and not measuring IBUs.

I am not discounting that dry hopping may increase bitterness but how did you know it was the dry hopping and not some other factor?

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