Hop questions 2019

[Mark D Pirate]

58 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

http://scottjanish.com/increasing-bitterness-dry-hopping/

Solid article,  back up with citations even .

It does back up my personal experience,  was judging club comp on Saturday and sampled several NEIPAs with no boil hops at all that still certainly had bitterness. 

Not astringency,  not green hop bite and not due to poor process ( infection,  yeast / temp issues)  .

Trying to keep to up to date with research into all the aspects of brewing would be all but impossible,  there's thousands of compounds in hops that aren't properly understood but what a time to be a brewer ! 

[BlackSands]

27 minutes ago, Hairy said:

 For the guys that have experienced an increase in bitterness from dry hopping, how did you know this was the case? If you dry hopped the whole batch then there is nothing to compare it to.  You can't really compare it to a previous batch of the same recipe as there are a lot of variables that impact bitterness.

And one of the biggest variables is human perception and unreliable memory!  It's for this reason that I usually take anecdotal accounts with a pinch of salt unless they were made under split batch A/B - type scrutiny.          

[Norris!]

For me it was a kit with and without dry hops.

So I did a Mexican Cerveza with just the kit and had a few bottles left over and then I did the same kit with galaxy dry hop of 50g. I picked up additional bitterness and so did my wife from the dry hop batch. This was when I was still drinking low bittered beers so it kind of stuck out to me. Very much ancedotal evidence.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Norris!

[BlackSands]

1 minute ago, Norris! said:

For me it was a kit with and without dry hops.

So I did a Mexican Cerveza with just the kit and had a few bottles left over and then I did the same kit with galaxy dry hop of 50g. I picked up additional bitterness and so did my wife from the dry hop batch. This was when I was still drinking low bittered beers so it kind of stuck out to me. Very much ancedotal evidence.

I guess in this comparison the first of the two brews was older and it's possible the bitterness mellowed somewhat over time.  Taste perception is a complex thing and I know mine seems to vary from one day to the next!   

[Norris!]

29 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

I guess in this comparison the first of the two brews was older and it's possible the bitterness mellowed somewhat over time.  Taste perception is a complex thing and I know mine seems to vary from one day to the next!   

Totally agree with the perception and the fact that the beer could have mellowed it would of been at least 4 weeks old as I was still bottling when I truly noticed this. 

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, Norris! said:

...If you don't buy that research no sweat off my back but don't fill people's heads with YOUR opinion when scientists have said otherwise, that is my main point. Now if you have research to disprove this article or my experience then share it.

No problem. I'll actually use a reference used in that exact article you linked to.

"The Surprising Science of Dry Hopping - Lessons from Tom Shellhammer" contains references/quotes to other articles that it then draws conclusions from. Ironically one of those is the author of this article.

Reference [5] from your linked article... E. Parkin, T. H. Shellhammer, “Toward understanding the bitterness of dry hopped beer” 

Quote

The impact on analytical and sensory bitterness of hop acids and hop-derived polyphenols resulting from dry-hopping in beer was investigated using a pilot-scale dry-hopping study and a commercial dry-hop survey. The pilot-scale dry-hopping study utilized a trained sensory panel to quantify increases in bitterness caused by dry-hopping an unhopped ale at different dosing rates (0–16 g/L) and exposure times (0–72 h). The International Bitterness Unit (IBU) and a range of hop acids and polyphenols were measured in the dry-hopped beer to determine which specific bitter hop components may have been responsible for dry-hopping bitterness. The commercial survey examined the bitter acids and polyphenol chemistry of 15 different commercial beers, pre-and post-dry-hopped, brewed by Pacific Northwest breweries. Although iso-α-acids (IAA) were the main contributor to beer bitterness, humulinones (oxidized α-acids) and polyphenols were also potentially significant contributors to bitterness, particularly in heavily dry-hopped beer. The increase in beer bitterness (IBU) as a result of dry-hopping was attributed to humulinone extraction and, in some cases, polyphenol extraction. The commercial survey noted a decrease in the total IAA concentrations as a result of dry-hopping in a majority of the samples tested, indicating that the dry-hopping process may remove IAA from beer.

Quote

potentially

Dictionary result for potentially

adverb

with the capacity to develop or happen in the future.

Quote

unquestionably

Dictionary result for unquestionably

adverb

in a way that cannot be disputed or doubted; without question.

To be a little more helpful...(from "The Surprising Science of Dry Hopping..." article)

Quote

...His research shows that compounds called humulinones and polyphenols can make significant contributions to bitterness in heavily dry-hopped beers [5]. Unlike the isomerized alpha acids these compounds do not need to be boiled to become bitter. Furthermore, because the humulinones are formed when (non-isomerized) alpha acids are oxidized, this effect is more dramatic when using old hops that have partially oxidized. 

If you've ever made a beer with old hops you'll note it has a more perceived bitterness to it. It's only because the vegetal tones coming from the oxidized hops are harsher & more pronounced due to the moisture content of them being lower. I know this NOT because I read of someone that has brewed beers like this, but because I myself have brewed beers like this, sampled them & learned from them.

The other part of the article(s) worth dissecting are the "particularly in heavily dry-hopped beer" (I bolded) & the "pilot-scale dry-hopping study" information provided that this article is based on. Put simply, the more vegetal matter you expose your beer/wort to, the more impact it will have in this perceived bitterness area, especially with older, more oxidised hops.

Good luck to all that sculpt their beers around this BS bitterness path.

No I'm not a scientist, I'm a realist.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Beerlust

[Norris!]

What is the difference between perceived and actual when eating or drinking? Answer that Lusty and I think we will be in agreement on this.

[Beerlust]

Hiya Norris. 

Nowhere in any of the literature provided were any measurable IBU level(s) attained, calculated, &/or listed via dry hopping.

It's because it can't be, & IMHO it isn't bitterness in a true sense anyway.

If I was a visionary, I'd say "because it can't be TODAY". Unfortunately for the believers here, I'm a realist. 

Cheers & good brewing mate,

Lusty.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Beerlust

[Norris!]

No worries Mate.

 

Cheers

Norris

[Beerlust]

If I'm being honest, I suppose "the difference between perceived and actual" is that ONE is measurable. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Beerlust

[Worthog]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

If I'm being honest, I suppose "the difference between perceived and actual" is that ONE is measurable. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

One is measurable, but it's the perceived that makes you like it, or chuck it. That is why we brew and modify our own recipes, not the scientifically correct ones.... 

Cheers

[Beerlust]

1 minute ago, Worthog said:

One is measurable, but it's the perceived that makes you like it, or chuck it. That is why we brew and modify our own recipes, not the scientifically correct ones.... 

The only problem with that ideology is when someone asks how much weight of dry hops & at how long a time-frame with how old a hop do I add to my brew 'X' to create the perceived bitterness brewer 'A' wants?

If you can answer that question accurately every time given the differing factors then you definitely know more about hops than I do.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Worthog]

And I find with my AG endeavours that I am gradually reducing my FWH load, and boiling less hop, and later. More at FO and of course dry hop. This, rightly or wrongly is getting me closer to the 'balance' I want.

I would never say I know what I'm doing with regard to brewing credibility. I just know what I like, and that is not sweet beer, but definitely a perceived balance.

By the way, I could never answer the technical hopping questions, anytime. I'll leave that shit in your extremely educated hands Lusty. 

Cheers

 

[Beerlust]

4 minutes ago, Worthog said:

And I find with my AG endeavours that I am gradually reducing my FWH load, and boiling less hop, and later. More at FO and of course dry hop. This, rightly or wrongly is getting me closer to the 'balance' I want.

Well said. +1 

The only aspect of brewing I'll admit I'm outwardly a bit arrogant about is hopping. It's not because I've read more about the subject than the next bloke, it's because I've physically brewed more beers with more hop varieties & in more ways using more techniques than pretty much anyone else on this forum & beyond on a home brewing level (that I have come into contact with). I take the time to notate from brew to brew on everything I do, particularly around what I do with my hopping, & have done for 7yrs+ now.

The advice I offer isn't to offend, or discourage, only to inform from someone who has firsthand knowledge in many cases on a home-brew level. What people do with the info I offer I could give AFF about TBQH.

The so-called scientists with agendas I see through very easily these days. Remember they're being paid for their advice to fit certain agendas from corporate bodies. What I offer with my advice is from an educated position without prejudice or bias toward any agenda, & only to assist the home brewer.

I don't have a YouTube channel or Facebook page I ask you to like to make money for me from anyone I offer my help or advice to.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[John304]

43 minutes ago, Worthog said:

And I find with my AG endeavours that I am gradually reducing my FWH load, and boiling less hop, and later. More at FO and of course dry hop. This, rightly or wrongly is getting me closer to the 'balance' I want.

I would never say I know what I'm doing with regard to brewing credibility. I just know what I like, and that is not sweet beer, but definitely a perceived balance.

 

Cheers

 

And that,s all that matters!

[Titan]

I really like the idea and OP of the research. Im convinced that dry hoping adds bitterness. However because the brain perceives based on not only taste but smell and sight. The perception of bitterness is because the brain expected this based on the other 2 senses.

[Hairy]

I only dry hop with divorced hops; it adds extra bitterness.

[The Captain!!]

To perceive or have perception is to become aware of something that you (the taster) or have interpretated and acknowledge to be truthful.

If I’m tasting a beer and it tastes more bitter than another beer, my acknowledgement of truth is that it’s more bitter. Simple as that. 

Regardless of who says what, including scientist, punters, tasting panels, children, measuring devices, and so forth, if the beer is bitter, it’s bitter regardless of which compound is doing what. 

I have brewed side by side brew to that I have dry hopped differently, this was not for this reason but for seeing how much dry hops I actually prefer for aroma and taste. At the time I did not know anything about this article so I wasn’t persuaded either way. 

When I tasted this side by side, I (The taster) perceived the dry hopped beer to be more bitter. 

So, yes, in my perceived acknowledgement of truth the more bitter beer was that one that was significantly more dry hopped.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think the idea of scientists as a whole making biased findings because they're paid for their work is ridiculous. Some, probably but certainly not all of them. Those are usually the ones discredited anyway.

[The Captain!!]

3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I think the idea of scientists as a whole making biased findings because they're paid for their work is ridiculous. Some, probably but certainly not all of them. Those are usually the ones discredited anyway.

I think the same thing Kelsey. 

[Beerlust]

10 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I think the idea of scientists as a whole making biased findings because they're paid for their work is ridiculous. Some, probably but certainly not all of them. Those are usually the ones discredited anyway.

Learn to throw in words like "potentially", "possibly", & "notably" in place of words like "categorically", "unquestionably", & "undeniably" in your thesis papers, & you'll last a lot longer in your chosen research field. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Mark D Pirate]

Hmmm.... The Janish article did find a quantifiable increase in IBUs from dry hopping in the lab. 

Pure,  objective data , no need for opinions or personal shots but the numbers rarely lie 

[Worthog]

Can hop pellets be added to FWH, late boil, and Dry, directly out of the freezer?

Also, if I get them out of the freezer and they thaw a bit, can I put the rest back in the freezer for next time?

Cheers

[Hairy]

53 minutes ago, Worthog said:

Can hop pellets be added to FWH, late boil, and Dry, directly out of the freezer?

Also, if I get them out of the freezer and they thaw a bit, can I put the rest back in the freezer for next time?

Cheers

Yes and yes.

Add a frozen hop pellet to the boil and it won't stay frozen for long.

[Popo the Reprobate]

I'm doing a bit of a leftovers brew this evening. Mostly pale malt, a bit of wheat and a couple of other bits and pieces.

I've got some Topaz and Moutere that have been sitting in the freezer for a while and I'd like to use them up in this. Does anyone have any tips on getting the best out of these two hops?