DonPolo Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I have just put down a new 11L brew in my Craft Fermenter using the Coopers Australian Pale Ale as a base and have a few questions: 1. Even though the instructions say to brew in the temperature range 21-27 C, I get from the consensus on this site that I'd be better off aiming for around 18C is that right? I don't have a brew fridge but have had some success putting the fermenter in a laundry tub and using frozen water bottles. 2. Because it was a 'half brew', I used 850g of the can and 500g LDM even though the instructions said Brew Enhancer 2. I added about 100g of caster sugar to get the OG up a bit but didn't test it. Ian H's spreadsheet says that it should be about 1045 SG for a final bottling ABV of 4.9% . I don't see the point of testing the OG since there always seems to be some clumps of LDM swimming around and that would surely affect the reading. 3. I put a 10g hop tea of Brigalow Galaxy hops according to the instructions which are: '... add the hop bag in a cup of boiling water for at least 15 minutes. Pour the liquid and the hop bag into your brew prior to adding the yeas. Leave the hop bag in the brew throughout the whole fermentation process." I was wondering how to enter this process into IanH's spreadsheet to, amount other things calculate the IBU level? 4. Lastly, I have done some dry hopping in the past with reasonable results. However, recently I came upon this webpage which essentially suggests making a hop tea and pouring that into the brew just prior to bottling. Any thoughts? https://beerandbrewing.com/use-hops-tea-to-enhance-flavors-in-your-beer/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Don, yes try and keep the beer as close to 18 as you can. Clumps will affect you OG so you need to rely on the numbers provided by the spreadsheet. No idea as i dont use the spreadsheet. Looks fine. Give it a shot, will add a little more bitterness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I don't know why they tell you to put the hop bag in for the whole fermentation. It probably won't do any harm but there is no point to it either. Once the hops have been steeped in the water and release their goodness they are of no further use. All that needs to go into the fermenter is the water they were steeped in. By all means, squeeze the bag to get as much out of it, but chuck it out afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Once the hops have been steeped in the water and release their goodness they are of no further use. I've often wondered about this? Would a 15 minute steep/stand in hot water really deplete the hops? Or do they still have more to give? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 They could always be steeped longer. But I don't think so, they tend to disintegrate pretty quickly after being put into water or wort so whatever is in them would be released pretty quickly afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 Thanks all. Still wondering about the IBUs. I also realised that the post fermentation hop tea method outlined in the link would affect the FG reading because it adds another litre or in my case .5 litre at the end. I might dry hop this one and do a 10l batch next time before adding the tea. On the other hand would a 250ml steep with 15g each of cascade and centennial suffice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I don't think 10g of hops steeped in hot water (not boiling as that would be a boil) will increase the IBU enough to be noticed. Just boil some water, pour into a suitable container then throw in the hops and let them sit, like making a cup of tea but with a longer steep. The water will probably drop to about 90 degrees almost instantly anyway if you're only using a cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 56 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said: They could always be steeped longer. But I don't think so, they tend to disintegrate pretty quickly after being put into water or wort so whatever is in them would be released pretty quickly afterwards. And yet in contrast, people dry-hop for days. I realise dry hops are usually added at fermentation temps as opposed to "hot" but would a hot water steep really work THAT much faster than say a 18-20ºC dry-hop ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I think there are different reasons for it with dry hopping. If you are going commando, then they need time to drop out or you end up with blocked taps or floaties in the beer. If they're in a container there's a reluctance to open the fermenter again to take them out. Overall it's simply easier to leave them in until bottling is finished but with steeping they can be easily removed. On the other hand, nobody adds boiled hops to the fermenter so why would they add steeped hops to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Hi BlackSands. 23 minutes ago, BlackSands said: And yet in contrast, people dry-hop for days. I realise dry hops are usually added at fermentation temps as opposed to "hot" but would a hot water steep really work THAT much faster than say a 18-20ºC dry-hop ? It's all about the preservation of the aromatic hop oils. A passage from the following BYO article explains it perfectly... https://byo.com/article/dry-hopping-for-great-aroma/ Quote ...Adding hops later in the process preserves the flavor and aroma from the hops’ oils. These are distinct from the alpha acids that give the beer its bitterness. The oils add no bitterness, just flavor and aroma. During the boiling process, nearly all of the hop oils evaporate; the longer the boil time the more oils are lost. The hops put in at the beginning of the boil for bittering lose almost all of their oils. Those added near the end of the boil don’t lose as much oil but still lose quite a bit. And the heat of the boil induces chemical changes in the oils, so even those that are left lack the aroma of fresh hops. I hope that helps. Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussiekraut Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I love the knowledge in this forum. One can learn so much by just reading other people's questions and the answers to it. It's awesome. Whilst we're at it, is there a difference between a "hop tea" and heating up some malt in water and then steeping the hops? I've heard the latter is the better way but I also see a lot of people stating that a hop tea is perfectly fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 53 minutes ago, Beerlust said: I hope that helps. Lusty. No, unfortunately it doesn't help at all. That passage you quoted talks exclusively about the boil additions. What' I'm querying is with regard to POST-boil additions. Hop steeps/stands. I thought that might have been evident from my question above: "Would a 15 minute steep/stand in hot water really deplete the hops? Or do they still have more to give? " I know from studies that in the case of dry hops most of the extraction occurs within the first 24 hours. It's been suggested here that at higher steep temperatures 15 minutes is enough to achieve optimal extraction. I note elsewhere many do stands of up to 30 minutes, but either way in the absence of any solid data I'm just querying the length of time typically adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Aussiekraut said: I love the knowledge in this forum. One can learn so much by just reading other people's questions and the answers to it. It's awesome. Whilst we're at it, is there a difference between a "hop tea" and heating up some malt in water and then steeping the hops? I've heard the latter is the better way but I also see a lot of people stating that a hop tea is perfectly fine. You dont actually need the malt but the benifits are the liquid counts towards your OG in a positive way where as a tea made with water counts as a nagative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 12 hours ago, BlackSands said: No, unfortunately it doesn't help at all. That passage you quoted talks exclusively about the boil additions. What' I'm querying is with regard to POST-boil additions. Hop steeps/stands. I thought that might have been evident from my question above: "Would a 15 minute steep/stand in hot water really deplete the hops? Or do they still have more to give? " I know from studies that in the case of dry hops most of the extraction occurs within the first 24 hours. It's been suggested here that at higher steep temperatures 15 minutes is enough to achieve optimal extraction. I note elsewhere many do stands of up to 30 minutes, but either way in the absence of any solid data I'm just querying the length of time typically adopted. The point to note from the passage is the introduction of heat. Heat from boiling temps down diminishes/vaporizes the aromatic compounds found in essential hop oils on a sliding scale. Of those known, most notably Myrcene which has a flashpoint of approx. 64°C. In the most aromatic of hop varieties the Myrcene can make up to 40-60% of the total essential oils. So if you boil or steep a hop like this above 64°C looking to create high aroma in your beer, you're wasting your time as you've vaporized some chunk of it, if not all of it. If you wish to hop steep below 64°C you would likely have to hold your steep for longer to gain the full extraction of those essential oils. At what time frame, I'm not really sure. What I am sure about is I don't like leaving my wort sitting around exposed for lengthy periods where a bacterial infection or wild yeast infection can take hold while I'm waiting for the steep to finish. I'll stick to dry hopping where primary fermentation has protected the wort/beer from the threat of infection. Cheers, Lusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Beerlust said: The point to note from the passage is the introduction of heat. Heat from boiling temps down diminishes/vaporizes the aromatic compounds found in essential hop oils on a sliding scale. Of those known, most notably Myrcene which has a flashpoint of approx. 64°C. In the most aromatic of hop varieties the Myrcene can make up to 40-60% of the total essential oils. So if you boil or steep a hop like this above 64°C looking to create high aroma in your beer, you're wasting your time as you've vaporized some chunk of it, if not all of it. If you wish to hop steep below 64°C you would likely have to hold your steep for longer to gain the full extraction of those essential oils. At what time frame, I'm not really sure. What I am sure about is I don't like leaving my wort sitting around exposed for lengthy periods where a bacterial infection or wild yeast infection can take hold while I'm waiting for the steep to finish. I'll stick to dry hopping where primary fermentation has protected the wort/beer from the threat of infection. Cheers, Lusty Yeah, I'm aware of the various aromatic flash points the real crux of the discussion was of course about time frames for hop stands: Quote "...at what time frame, I'm not really sure". I have yet to find anyone or any a source that actually does know. I'm keen to see some data that relates steep temperatures with steep duration and resultant 'hoppiness' - both measured and perceived. I would have thought there'd be someone somewhere, perhaps in the commercial brewery world who would have investigated this ? Quote ...if you boil or steep a hop like this above 64°C looking to create high aroma in your beer, you're wasting your time as you've vaporized some chunk of it, if not all of it. Oddly, according to one trial I know of, at the glass, tasters couldn't tell the difference between the same beer - one with FO hop addition and the other with a hop stand at 49ºC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, BlackSands said: I have yet to find anyone or any a source that actually does know. I'm keen to see some data that relates steep temperatures with steep duration and resultant 'hoppiness' - both measured and perceived. I would have thought there'd be someone somewhere, perhaps in the commercial brewery world who would have investigated this ? I looked for info on this very subject (& temp zone) a number of years ago & could find nothing definitive. In the end I just gave up & moved onto other things. Maybe the fact that there is little to nothing definitive about this temp zone of steeping is because there is nothing overly advantageous by attempting the practice? 1 hour ago, BlackSands said: ...Oddly, according to one trial I know of, at the glass, tasters couldn't tell the difference between the same beer - one with FO hop addition and the other with a hop stand at 49ºC. Tasters simply provide an opinion that is subjective, inconclusive, & often differs from person to person. Science generally provides the answers. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Beerlust said: I looked for info on this very subject (& temp zone) a number of years ago & could find nothing definitive. In the end I just gave up & moved onto other things. Maybe the fact that there is little to nothing definitive about this temp zone of steeping is because there is nothing overly advantageous by attempting the practice? It's a widely practiced practice so I imagine many are doing it because they've noted some advantages. I'm reminded that one of the most popular APA's on the planet - Sierra Nevada, isn't dry hopped. In contrast to yourself I'm actually erring away from dry hopping (again) and looking more to post-boil additions for my primary source hoppiness. As much as I enjoy a dry-hopped brew and all that dry hopping has to offer I don't enjoy the inevitable hop fade. By the time I get half-way through a dry-hopped batch the benefits are long gone and what I invariably end up with is a beer that's not entirely dissimilar to one that just had hop stand additions. In terms of hop-stand advantages there is also talk around of flavours getting 'locked-in' through the process of boiling and steeping. Not seen anything 'sciencey' to validate this claim... yet. I'm particularly querying the duration aspect because I do know from the science that it takes around a day for a dry hop to surrender all it's goodness to the beer - that's at 'room' temperature. Raising the temperature in the case of a hop stand, tea etc obviously increases the extraction rate but I'm struggling to see this time being as short as most suggest even at higher steep temperatures. It's probably not a linear relationship but if maximum extraction is achieved at room temperature in a day then at say 3 x times 'room' temperature ... how long does that take? A third of a day? Or maybe it is just 15 - 30 minutes as some suggest? Dunno. As with most things there's numerous variables and hop varieties involved and it's therefore probably far too complex really. At the end of the day I'll probably never know what optimal steep temperatures and durations should be in any given situation. Though curious, in practice I will just settle on a temperature and duration which fits in with my current process - i.e. sometime during my rather long cooling cycle, toss in a generous amount of hops into the pot, note the time, temp and end result with that particular hop and brew and adjust accordingly from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Quote Tasters simply provide an opinion that is subjective, inconclusive, & often differs from person to person. Science generally provides the answers. Well, it was a trial done following scientific method and of course the subjectivity of tasters is a key aspect of such evaluations. Even if things are measured in a lab, e.g. precise levels of aromatic oils present in a beer, human perception has to be the ultimate decider and a statistically significant majority or otherwise is used to make the final determination. It's only a single point of data though with a relatively small sample size, but it's still valid data and better than no data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 I wonder if anyone has done a lot of trials where they steeped hops in a known quantity of water (say 250ml) at a given temperature for different durations and then actually tasted the hop tea? Then another set of trials where the quantity of water and duration were held constant and the temperature was varied and then carried out taste tests of the hop tea again. I suppose the chemists out there would have a way of measuring bitterness or hop oils/flavours but just an idea. Clearly the taste of the tea would be diluted/be changed when it is added to the brew but interesting nonetheless. I might have a bit of a go at some point if I can't Google up an article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, DonPolo said: ....actually tasted the hop tea? You'd have to use relatively small quantities and quite dilute compared to a typical hop-stand charge otherwise it would be super bitter - and probably well past the level where anyone would be able to differentiate between degrees of bitterness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPolo Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, BlackSands said: You'd have to use relatively small quantities and quite dilute compared to a typical hop-stand charge otherwise it would be super bitter - and probably well past the level where anyone would be able to differentiate between degrees of bitterness. Fair enough. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyBrew2 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The Aussie youtuber ‘strass’drank the hop tea. He made a good video on hop teas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, PaddyBrew2 said: The Aussie youtuber ‘strass’drank the hop tea. He made a good video on hop teas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...I'm reminded that one of the most popular APA's on the planet - Sierra Nevada, isn't dry hopped. It's a very old beer now & pales (excuse the pun) into comparison with many modern day pale ales built off the back of this beer. It holds a sort of legend status among the pale ale drinkers community that has continued it's sales success, & is well earned. As far as modern pale ales are concerned though, it's also not very aromatic at all. 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...In contrast to yourself I'm actually erring away from dry hopping (again) and looking more to post-boil additions for my primary source hoppiness. As much as I enjoy a dry-hopped brew and all that dry hopping has to offer I don't enjoy the inevitable hop fade. By the time I get half-way through a dry-hopped batch the benefits are long gone and what I invariably end up with is a beer that's not entirely dissimilar to one that just had hop stand additions. I'm hearin' ya. With our home brewing we're all a little different with our brews & our experiences from them. We learn & adapt from what we brew & taste. 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...In terms of hop-stand advantages there is also talk around of flavours getting 'locked-in' through the process of boiling and steeping. Not seen anything 'sciencey' to validate this claim... yet. My reading on FWH'ing suggests it does. My practical brewing with the technique numerous times proves it does. It does not improve aromatics in a notably obvious way though from my limited experimentation. Flavour retention is terrific though (IMHO). 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...I'm particularly querying the duration aspect because I do know from the science that it takes around a day for a dry hop to surrender all it's goodness to the beer - that's at 'room' temperature. I'm not of that belief. 2 full days minimum, preferably 3. I've previously posted a BeerSmith video with James Altwies that discusses the minimum release time required for hop oils to seep into wort beer. The guy is the owner of commercial hop farm in the USA & has more bio/chem/agriculture degrees than you can poke a stick at. His advice has served me well. 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...Raising the temperature in the case of a hop stand, tea etc obviously increases the extraction rate but I'm struggling to see this time being as short as most suggest even at higher steep temperatures. It's probably not a linear relationship but if maximum extraction is achieved at room temperature in a day then at say 3 x times 'room' temperature ... how long does that take? A third of a day? Yep, that's exactly where my head left that conversation at. 11 hours ago, BlackSands said: ...As with most things there's numerous variables and hop varieties involved and it's therefore probably far too complex really. At the end of the day I'll probably never know what optimal steep temperatures and durations should be in any given situation. Though curious, in practice I will just settle on a temperature and duration which fits in with my current process - i.e. sometime during my rather long cooling cycle, toss in a generous amount of hops into the pot, note the time, temp and end result with that particular hop and brew and adjust accordingly from there. You'll always make progress while you take the time to notate what you did from brew to brew. The patience to persevere is the hard part some times. Best of luck getting your brews to the levels you're looking for. Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 just with hop teas ... I use a coffee plunger for the steep and it works a treat .... does anyone use a different method ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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