Mashes and Steeping

[Worthog]

Does anyone do a normal BIAB mash of, say, 4kg of a couple of different base grains, and separately steep 500 or so grams of specialty grains, for the 30m or so, then add them separately into th FV?

Just wondering if small amounts of specialty grain tastes get lost in the overall mash?

Might be a stupid question. Just asking..

[Hairy]

No, they won't get lost in the mash with the base grains. It is easier to do it all together.

I know some people steep dark grains separately but that is usually a cold steep so not to extract tannins.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I've never bothered doing it either. You still get the flavour contribution from those grains in the mash. 

[Shamus O'Sean]

There is a really interesting passage in the Beersmith Podcast No 39 "Advanced Home Brewing with Gordon Strong" from about the 16 minute mark.  He talks about this subject and the benefits of steeping your specialty grains separately.  This method is done to avoid tannins, astringency and to avoid changes to the pH of your water that can occur by having them in the mash.

Listening to these podcasts and reading this Coopers Forum is really giving me inspiration to go to all-grain.  I just need to save some pennies and convince the financial manager.  But I also want to move to kegging and a kegerator.  Decisions, decisions.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Changes in pH could be beneficial though. I've measured my last three batches, one was at 5.2 and the last two have been at 5.4, all measured after the first temp rest was finished as there was stirring going on while the temp was being raised to the next rest, so a good time to take a sample. Today's one doesn't have any spec. malts in it but the other two did. I suspect without them the pH would have been higher, which isn't necessarily desirable. I like to keep it around 5.2-5.4 for most of my beers but happy to go up to 5.6ish for the darker ones. To achieve that with darker brews, I add more carbonates to the brewing water to act as a buffer and make it more difficult for the acidic dark roasted grains to drop the pH too far.

I have never experienced astringency from mashing specialty malts either.

[Shamus O'Sean]

15 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

To achieve that with darker brews, I add more carbonates to the brewing water to act as a buffer and make it more difficult for the acidic dark roasted grains to drop the pH too far.

That is where what Gordon Strong was saying gets interesting.  He said you add the carbonates to act as a buffer - then said, if you do not put the dark/roast grains in the mash you do not need to add extra carbonates.  He said just steep them and add them later.  That way you minimise the need to add stuff to compensate for something else in the process.  He was advocating for ways to avoid unnecessary additions to the beer. 

On the matter of astringency in the beer.  Gordon likened it to: Which coffee would you prefer, the one straight out of the percolator or the one that has been sitting in the percolator of an hour.  That might be a bit simplified, but it made some sense.

[Otto Von Blotto]

That may be true but it doesn't really reduce the amount of steps, it simply moves them around a bit. In my situation though I am starting with distilled water so I'm adding minerals anyway; it's less hassle for me to simply add chalk or bicarb soda to the water along with the other minerals than do a separate grain steep for the dark malts. Less cleaning up too, as I use the jug I mix the minerals up with to mix up the Brewbrite later on so I'm not cleaning any extra items.

I'm not really sure how you'd end up with astringency unless you mashed out too high. It has to get to 80+ to extract astringency from what I've read over the years. I mash out around 77-78 and don't have any issues. Some cats reckon squeezing the grain bag results in astringency as well but I've never noticed it.

[Shamus O'Sean]

4 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'm not really sure how you'd end up with astringency

I do not think he was speaking in terms of bad enough to ruin the beer.  Just that it would be noticeable.  I have not listened back to the whole podcast, but I think he may have said because it does make the beer a little more acidy, that some people might report it as astringent.

 

4 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Some cats reckon squeezing the grain bag results in astringency

I have read that too.  Ruddy does it in all his videos that I can remember and he does not seem to have problems.

I guess it is about following processes that work for us and brew beer we like.  That is probably why I still mostly do kit n bits.  I would like to move to all grain, but I am happy with what I am making.  The move will happen eventually, when a couple more moons align.

Cheers Shamus

[Mark D Pirate]

There's a process called capping the mash where you add your roasted malts in the last 10 minutes of the mash that was reported to reduce any astringency but still extract the flavour and colour. 

I only tried it once using my standard Southwark stout recipe,  I had to make minor adjustments to ensure mash pH was still acceptable during the main mash and found it only reduced the roasty character a little and dropped the pH post boil by 0.2 units. 

 otherwise had no impact , wouldn't bother again 

[Shamus O'Sean]

2 hours ago, Mark D Pirate said:

capping the mash

Hi Mark

That sounds a lot like what they were talking about.

[The Captain!!]

Jamil Z talks about this side steep or capping as being a waste of grain and a load of Sh!t, his words, not mine. 

Experimental Homebrew did a live triangle test in Australia and it was pretty much Unaminous that everyone enjoyed the side steeped version more

Side note it was no chilled, and that surprised the Americans.

[Ronnie Dale]

It did surprise me. I have no idea what you are talking about but being American, I stand surprised!