Brewing Lager Properly

[MitchellScott]

Hi guys.

I currently have my first lager fermenting at 12C (currently day 6). I didn't do anything fancy with the ingredients, as this is my first brew with the larger 23L FV.

Ingredients were Coopers Lager extract with Brew Enhancer 2, fermented with hydrated W34-70 yeast at 12C.

As I do some research about brewing lagers, I am finding a few different things that should be done to make the best lager.

The first is a Diacetyl Rest. Which from what I can figure is bringing the temp up to around 16-21C for 24-72 hours. I have a few questions regarding this... When should this be done? After FG has been reached? And what is the best duration?

The next thing is the lagering period, which is cooling the brew to near freezing temps while ageing it further. Now because I am using bottles for carbonation, how do I do this while using the carbonation drops? Do I lager it then add the drops later then store at ambient temp or is there another way? And how long do you recommend for lagering duration?

Thanks in advance for the info :).

[Otto Von Blotto]

I normally do a diacetyl rest at 18 degrees. I just change the temperature on the controller and let the brew rise by itself. I do it with around 12-13 points left before it hits FG, and it stays up there for a few days after FG. At that point I begin slowly ramping down to lagering temps of around 3 degrees.

If you're bottling you could go one of two ways. The first would be to do the slow ramp down and lager for a week or two in the fermenter, then bottle the beer and allow it to carbonate at a warmer temp before chilling them down again to lager properly. The other option is to simply bottle it after the diacetyl rest, allow to carbonate then lager them. 

Duration would be about 2-3 months for best results.

[MitchellScott]

14 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I normally do a diacetyl rest at 18 degrees. I just change the temperature on the controller and let the brew rise by itself. I do it with around 12-13 points left before it hits FG, and it stays up there for a few days after FG. At that point I begin slowly ramping down to lagering temps of around 3 degrees.

If you're bottling you could go one of two ways. The first would be to do the slow ramp down and lager for a week or two in the fermenter, then bottle the beer and allow it to carbonate at a warmer temp before chilling them down again to lager properly. The other option is to simply bottle it after the diacetyl rest, allow to carbonate then lager them. 

Duration would be about 2-3 months for best results.

Sounds like a plan... Damn 2-3 months is a long time hahaha :(.

Sounds like bottling after diacetyl rest , carbonating then lagering will probably be the easiest option.

If I have never brewed this batch before how would I know when to start the diacetyl rest? I'm guessing the FG will be around 1.006 - 1.010 but that is a stab in the dark. My OG was 1.036.

Thanks again OVB for your help!

[Otto Von Blotto]

They generally get to the point where you'd raise the temp after about 5-6 days so you could probably adjust it now. It'll take about a day to get to 18. The reason I do it like this is partly to use the heat from the yeast itself and partly to get it to FG a bit quicker. All my lagers reach FG in 10 days or less. 

It is a long time to lager but it's worth it. Unfortunately there's no way to speed up the process. Early on in my kegging days I brewed 2 or 3 pilsners that went on tap pretty much as soon as they were kegged. All of them improved over the 4-5 weeks they lasted.

[MitchellScott]

21 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

They generally get to the point where you'd raise the temp after about 5-6 days so you could probably adjust it now. It'll take about a day to get to 18. The reason I do it like this is partly to use the heat from the yeast itself and partly to get it to FG a bit quicker. All my lagers reach FG in 10 days or less. 

It is a long time to lager but it's worth it. Unfortunately there's no way to speed up the process. Early on in my kegging days I brewed 2 or 3 pilsners that went on tap pretty much as soon as they were kegged. All of them improved over the 4-5 weeks they lasted.

Makes sense, I'll definitely give it a go!!

Would my FG be reached later because I have only used one packet of 11.5g yeast? I'll do a SG reading tonight and if it seems closish I'll set the temp controller to 18C.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It may do but because it started warmer it may not either. It's been ages since I pitched a lowish amount into a lager, last time I did that I didn't even have temp control

I also go off SG when deciding when to raise the temp, it's just that they're that predictable now that I am always raising it at the same time after pitching. Usually 6 days. The check now is more for confirmation than anything else.

[MitchellScott]

Just took a reading. Looks like we are sitting at 1.016 - 1.018 on day 6. OG was 1.036.

So increase temp to 18C?

[Marty_G]

Yep as the brains trust have mentioned up to 18 for 2 to 3 days .... then start the temp reduction to get to the cold crash ... 

[MitchellScott]

Absolute legends 

[Marty_G]

3 minutes ago, MitchellScott said:

Absolute legends 

Yes they are and very willing to answer questions ... 

[MitchellScott]

28 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Yes they are and very willing to answer questions ... 

Oh I know, I thought people would be sick of mine by now  it's gotta be one of the friendliest forums I have been apart of!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Leave the hydrometer sample sitting somewhere too, when it stops dropping you'll have an approximate FG

[MitchellScott]

3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Leave the hydrometer sample sitting somewhere too, when it stops dropping you'll have an approximate FG

Literally just tipped it out lol...

If when I take another one I'll remember to do that :).

[beerdeluxe]

13 hours ago, MitchellScott said:

Just took a reading. Looks like we are sitting at 1.016 - 1.018 on day 6. OG was 1.036.

So increase temp to 18C?

this is exactly where i was last week, day 6 had 1.013 Gravity so i moved it out of the fridge and tried to temp control up to 18-20c for a couple of days. i found the rest didn't reduce the gravity at all but it did look clearer and tasted fine. i then moved it to the fridge at 2c for about 4 days then bottled it. It's sitting under my stairs at around 20c now and once the bottles are hard i'll place them back in the fridge and wait at least a month before trying one. 

i dont think this is the right way but its the best i could do for this batch, let me know how yours goes

[MitchellScott]

28 minutes ago, beerdeluxe said:

this is exactly where i was last week, day 6 had 1.013 Gravity so i moved it out of the fridge and tried to temp control up to 18-20c for a couple of days. i found the rest didn't reduce the gravity at all but it did look clearer and tasted fine. i then moved it to the fridge at 2c for about 4 days then bottled it. It's sitting under my stairs at around 20c now and once the bottles are hard i'll place them back in the fridge and wait at least a month before trying one. 

i dont think this is the right way but its the best i could do for this batch, let me know how yours goes

Will do man! I am going to leave it at 18C for 2-3 days then bottle with carbonation drops, leave for about two weeks then cold crash it in the bottles. That way I can get another brew into the FV straight away.

Unless there is any benefit to cold crashing in the FV before bottling? If not I'll do the above method that way this weekend I'll get another brew fermenting :).

[beerdeluxe]

nah i reckon do it the way you're planning to because i'm worried my bottles wont have enough yeast in them to eat the round #2 sugar

[Otto Von Blotto]

The advantage of lagering in the fermenter first is that there is more yeast to do the cleaning up. But it doesn't have to be done that way. 

I'd leave it up at 18 or whatever for 2-3 days after it hits FG, not 2-3 days after you raise it. Just ensures it's finished before bottling.

On the point about yeast, I used to crash mine for 4-5 weeks before bottling them and never had a problem with carbonation. It doesn't drop enough yeast out to cause that process to fail. 

[MitchellScott]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

The advantage of lagering in the fermenter first is that there is more yeast to do the cleaning up. But it doesn't have to be done that way. 

I'd leave it up at 18 or whatever for 2-3 days after it hits FG, not 2-3 days after you raise it. Just ensures it's finished before bottling.

On the point about yeast, I used to crash mine for 4-5 weeks before bottling them and never had a problem with carbonation. It doesn't drop enough yeast out to cause that process to fail. 

Makes sense, will continually check FG and leave for a few days after it is reached.

I'll then bottle > leave for 2 weeks at ambient to carbonate > lager for approx 2 months in fridge.

I would lager in the FV but I wanna get another brew fermenting ASAP so this way will work better I think. 

What is the proper way to reduce temp for cold crashing? I think I saw somewhere to drop it 3C each day? Is this still the same if I bottled first then lagered?

[Beerlust]

Hello Mitchell.

On 2/11/2019 at 10:26 AM, MitchellScott said:

The first is a Diacetyl Rest. Which from what I can figure is bringing the temp up to around 16-21C for 24-72 hours. I have a few questions regarding this... When should this be done? After FG has been reached? And what is the best duration?

 

22 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...If you're bottling you could go one of two ways. The first would be to do the slow ramp down and lager for a week or two in the fermenter, then bottle the beer and allow it to carbonate at a warmer temp before chilling them down again to lager properly.

This process also negates the need to perform a diacetyl rest prior to bottling. As part of creating a secondary fermentation & the temperature of the bottled beer being at or above 18°C, the yeast will mop up any diacetyl as part of this process, just like they would if still in the fermenter. Given that lager strain yeasts can operate at lower ferment temperatures, I would NOT lager the beer (chill it down) in the fermenter prior to bottling if needing to remove diacetyl, because the yeast may well begin carbonating the beer before the 18°C mark is reached & therefore not remove the diacetyl before all of the secondary sugars are consumed.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah but the temp raise does have the other advantage of helping it reach FG faster. 

I've never really lagered beer in bottles but I'd assume the lack of yeast would mean they don't really have to be slowly dropped in temperature. They don't have to be slowly dropped in the fermenter either but in my experience it produces W better beer.

[MitchellScott]

13 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Hello Mitchell.

 

This process also negates the need to perform a diacetyl rest prior to bottling. As part of creating a secondary fermentation & the temperature of the bottled beer being at or above 18°C, the yeast will mop up any diacetyl as part of this process, just like they would if still in the fermenter. Given that lager strain yeasts can operate at lower ferment temperatures, I would NOT lager the beer (chill it down) in the fermenter prior to bottling if needing to remove diacetyl, because the yeast may well begin carbonating the beer before the 18°C mark is reached & therefore not remove the diacetyl before all of the secondary sugars are consumed.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Thanks for that Lusty. Makes sense what you are saying...

I shall let the brew reach FG at 18C then bottle with carbonation drops for a few weeks @ ambient temp, then lager in the bottles for a few months. Fingers crossed the outcome is good :).

[Beerlust]

 

11 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yeah but the temp raise does have the other advantage of helping it reach FG faster. 

Absolutely agree mate. I've done it with my last few lagers including the one I have in the FV atm. 

You'd be proud of me today Kelsey, I'm currently enjoying a product info session (that's what I'm calling it anyway) of a couple of Eastern block pilsner/lagers (Jelen & Niksicko) from 500ml cans. 

10 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...I've never really lagered beer in bottles but I'd assume the lack of yeast would mean they don't really have to be slowly dropped in temperature. They don't have to be slowly dropped in the fermenter either but in my experience it produces W better beer.

I have bottled a decent lager & allowed it to age for 3-4 months under ambient conditions. It was my first true lager I think  & my first partial mash. A former member of the forum (BillK) who incidentally became one of my biggest fans  helped me construct the recipe. (PB2, Hairy & Otto Von Blotto will likely have a good chuckle about that comment!) Anyways, at the time he helped a great deal & the beer turned out very clear without true "lagering" after being left for a solid 3-4 months before drinking.

10 hours ago, MitchellScott said:

Thanks for that Lusty. Makes sense what you are saying...

I shall let the brew reach FG at 18C then bottle with carbonation drops for a few weeks @ ambient temp, then lager in the bottles for a few months. Fingers crossed the outcome is good :).

I was a bit pushed for time this morning when I made my last post. What I left out was that there is nothing wrong with Otto Von Blotto's method that I highlighted. In his method, just allow the beer to rise back up to 18°C before beginning to bottle. Kelsey's advised method will also produce a clearer beer for transfer into the bottle that will create a clearer beer all round. 

It's really about when you wish to do the diacetyl rest. If you do it while the beer is still in primary ferment, you need to be taking gravity readings to time the increasing of ferment temp correctly. If you can't be buggared tracking SG readings, then do it as part of secondary ferment in the bottle at or above 18°C.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I too have had lagers quite clear after longer storage, however clarity is only one aspect of lagering. The other is flavour, it does improve over time when the beer is lagered properly, and since I use clarifying agents in mine, flavour improvement is the main reason I lager them. 

The yeast are still active at 3-4 degrees which is why I use this temperature for the first stage of lagering in the fermenter*. The slow ramp down puts them into cleanup mode so while other things are dropping out, the yeast are cleaning up as well. Then they go into the keg for the second stage of lagering/maturation and continue to condition and improve in there, at a colder temp around 0. The end result after 6-8 weeks (including the first 1.5-2 week stage in the fermenter) is a beautiful clean lager that I'd happily hand over money for at a bar. 

*The crash straight to zero, while it probably didn't shock them as much as some believe, likely sent them dormant, losing the benefit of them cleaning up. This is why I changed my process and it's worked really well.

[MitchellScott]

9 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I too have had lagers quite clear after longer storage, however clarity is only one aspect of lagering. The other is flavour, it does improve over time when the beer is lagered properly, and since I use clarifying agents in mine, flavour improvement is the main reason I lager them. 

The yeast are still active at 3-4 degrees which is why I use this temperature for the first stage of lagering in the fermenter*. The slow ramp down puts them into cleanup mode so while other things are dropping out, the yeast are cleaning up as well. Then they go into the keg for the second stage of lagering/maturation and continue to condition and improve in there, at a colder temp around 0. The end result after 6-8 weeks (including the first 1.5-2 week stage in the fermenter) is a beautiful clean lager that I'd happily hand over money for at a bar. 

*The crash straight to zero, while it probably didn't shock them as much as some believe, likely sent them dormant, losing the benefit of them cleaning up. This is why I changed my process and it's worked really well.

Okay well it looks like I might do a week or two in the fermenter after reading Lusty and your posts... Looks like it would help clean it up a bit before bottling.

I will check SG readings tonight... Once FG is reached, I'll begin to cold crash it. What sort of temp drops do you recommend? I will do the first stage of lagering in the fermenter at around 3-4C as recommended by Kelsey.

And going off what Lusty said, after the 1-2 week cold crash in the FV, should I be bumping back to 18C for a few days before bottling or just bottle straight after the cold crash?

 

Thanks lads.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I usually go from 18 to 12, then 2/3 degrees each 24 hours down to 3. I don't start dropping it until at least 2-3 days after FG is reached.

I wouldn't bother warming it back up before bottling though, it will warm up in the bottles anyway.