EWildcat7 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 So, I have now made 3 batches of beer and I need to vent/ask for advice. The first one was the lager that came with the kit. It was not good, but I didn't expect much because a) I waited almost a year after getting the kit to try it, so the ingredients may have been old, b) I know the BE1 isn't much to work with and c) I couldn't control the fermentation temperature. It was drinkable and tasted like beer, but was flat and had that apple flavor. The second was the Dark Ale HME with BE3. This one was better, but still not what I was hoping for. It has improved with age and I have had several of my friends tell me that they like it. So I am going to call this one a win, but a delayed win because the beer was in the bottles for months before it started to taste better. Last month I tried to make Aztec Gold, which is the Mexican Cerveza HME with Light Dry Malt. I was very excited about this one because I am fan of lighter beers, especially when the weather is warm and I had acquired a fridge and inkbird, so I felt like I would be able to control the temperature. I brewed it at 19 degrees and cold crashed for 3 days. This was my first time using the inkbird and also my first time cold crashing, so I felt like this would be a good one since I was using more "advanced" methods. After 3 weeks in the bottle, I tried one last night. I was not pleased. It had a slight apple taste and was somewhat flat. I know that this was going to be a more bland beer, but I just expected it to taste somewhat like a Corona, but it was more towards the water end of the spectrum. I fully understand that I may have tried it too early and that more time in the bottle should improve it, but that won't help the apple flavor, will it? I just don't know what I am doing wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 The Aztec gold should improve with time, it can be improved by fermenting with 2 packs of 34/70 yeast at 10° next time Without rubbishing kit brews there is a limit to how good a kit beer can be, you've made solid steps to improving quality by using temp control . Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 The only thing I can add is that good bottled brew takes time ... ignoring the brewing process as with temp control you have that right ... the longer you leave before drinking the better ... my preference is bottled brew and I have about 12 months supply ... I am the now drinking Coopers Cerveza that was bottled last March ... I did not like it at all as I tried it over the months but it has finally come of age...it has developed a pleasant citrus overtone and is wonderful really cold ... I had decided that I was not going to make again but I have changed my mind ... I will do a bit slower (colder) brew with LDM and see how it turns out ... fore my taste of beer my fallback is the APA I find that pretty bullet proof is good drinking after about a month and great after 6 ... the others Pils (which i find really hard to do well) European lagers, Stouts and Darks, I brew to age and drink .... I have found the Europern Lager the best of them but only when aged for 6 months or more ... so i suppose i am suggesting doing a couple of APA batches putting them down to drink as you regular drinking stock then playing with some of the others ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Not surprised the dark ale took a while, those styles usually do need ageing. With bottled beer I found different styles took different lengths of time to hit their peak, just like they do in kegs. There is no one size fits all. I don't know why you're getting this apple flavour though, everything you've done in terms of fermentation temp and process sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenyinthewestofsydney Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, MartyG1525230263 said: The only thing I can add is that good bottled brew takes time ... ignoring the brewing process as with temp control you have that right ... the longer you leave before drinking the better ... my preference is bottled brew and I have about 12 months supply ... I am the now drinking Coopers Cerveza that was bottled last March ... I did not like it at all as I tried it over the months but it has finally come of age...it has developed a pleasant citrus overtone and is wonderful really cold ... I had decided that I was not going to make again but I have changed my mind ... I will do a bit slower (colder) brew with LDM and see how it turns out ... fore my taste of beer my fallback is the APA I find that pretty bullet proof is good drinking after about a month and great after 6 ... the others Pils (which i find really hard to do well) European lagers, Stouts and Darks, I brew to age and drink .... I have found the Europern Lager the best of them but only when aged for 6 months or more ... so i suppose i am suggesting doing a couple of APA batches putting them down to drink as you regular drinking stock then playing with some of the others ... +1 on the APA kit. Most of my beers are all grain these days but I still often do an APA kit especially when getting up stocks again after a wipeout. APA kit. Can of light liquid malt. 21L. CCA yeast from a six pack. Ferment at 18c. Dry hop of 40gm of a C Hop or Galaxy. Top drop and dead easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_G Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Greeny1525229549 said: +1 on the APA kit. Most of my beers are all grain these days but I still often do an APA kit especially when getting up stocks again after a wipeout. APA kit. Can of light liquid malt. 21L. CCA yeast from a six pack. Ferment at 18c. Dry hop of 40gm of a C Hop or Galaxy. Top drop and dead easy. I don't even go to that extent ... I just use the kit and LDM .... I do a double brew in my 60L fermeter ... so 2 kits and 2kg LDM really works a treat for me ... builds my stock quick 10 doz stubbs in 1 hit ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Like mentioned above, it seems like you are doing everything right. I am surprised the cerveza took so long to come good, I start drinking them as soon as they are carbonated, they do improve or meld together over time better but the taste is always good. I never brew a kit just by itself, I always add hops. I find that they are somewhat lacking in terms of flavour and aroma. I want some big aroma and so I dry hop with at least 100g for the cerveza and most kits, that call for it, stouts and such probably not but I dont brew those. On your next brew, if you are going for an ale, try a boil and/or flameout additions and a nice dry hop, it will mask or remove any kit flavours you might be used to and give you a nice brew. I also found increasing my boil size helped improve flavours. I do 10l boils for 21l batches. When I bottle, I always bulk prime to dial in the carbonation level I want instead of using carb drops. It gives me more control then carb drops. I use this calculator https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/ I would also switch up the yeast and be sure to rehydrate and pitch enough. The coopers ale/lager yeast that comes with the cerveza is good but only 7.5 grams or something. Switching the yeast will help give a different flavour to the end product and help remove kit tastes. Keep at it and focus on what you like to buy and try to make something similar to that. Key in on your process and control points and keep notes so that you can adjust mistakes. Bad batches are good because we learn from them and adjust our techniques to make better beers. I hope this helps and gives you some ideas. Norris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 hours ago, EWildcat7 said: Last month I tried to make Aztec Gold, which is the Mexican Cerveza HME with Light Dry Malt. I was very excited about this one because I am fan of lighter beers, especially when the weather is warm and I had acquired a fridge and inkbird, so I felt like I would be able to control the temperature. I brewed it at 19 degrees and cold crashed for 3 days. This was my first time using the inkbird and also my first time cold crashing, so I felt like this would be a good one since I was using more "advanced" methods. After 3 weeks in the bottle, I tried one last night. I was not pleased. It had a slight apple taste and was somewhat flat. I know that this was going to be a more bland beer, but I just expected it to taste somewhat like a Corona, but it was more towards the water end of the spectrum. I fully understand that I may have tried it too early and that more time in the bottle should improve it, but that won't help the apple flavor, will it? I just don't know what I am doing wrong! I have never tried to make that recipe, but with only 500gm of DME, I am not sure it could taste anything but watery, LOL! Especially as the lager portion of the ale/lager yeast blend dries the beer out and doesn't leave much body behind. Borrowing the yeast from one of the original series kits might give it more body. The apple flavour is most likely due to acetaldahyde, an intermediate product of fermentation. Just out of curiosity, how long did you let it ferment before starting the cold crash? Time in the bottle should help that acetaldahyde flavour. If you want some head on that beer, maybe use wheat DME next time. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddyBrew2 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 How’s your sanitation mate. It’s one of the most important aspects of homebrew. Even more important than temp control. What are you using to clean your fermenter. What sanitizer are you using ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 My experience with the Lager and BE1 was much the same. I don't bother with it anymore - it's just not a good kit imo. I'm on brew #10 now, and my pales have by far and away been the best beers. I'm still brewing without temperature control, so I have that variable. My suggestion is to try brewing a pale. Cooper Pale is good, but in my short expereince, any kits - even Coopers TC range and Black Rock's hopped-pimped-up Craft series, need plenty of extra hops to get something really satisfying. Pales hop choices are plentiful, but my personal picks are Citra, Cascade and Mosaic. I just did a pale with Galaxy and it's nice a bit different, but Mosaic is better IMO. I always use a Kg of malt, and have recently also added 500 of dex/corn As to your brews, 2 dumb questions: How do you sanitise, I've been using Starsan and had no issues. Are you adding sugar for your bottle fermentation? Roughly what temp are they stored at? I find warmer the better, but if my garage gets too hot, the ambient temp in the house of about 20C or so is about right during summer. I know many say beers improve with age, but TBH I can't say the last of any of my batches have been noticeably different to the first. Maybe I drink them too quick. I haven't drunk anything over 2 months old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocean's of Ale- Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Hang in there wild cat! The cervaza kit is a brilliant kit and i am a huge fan of the yeast in that kit, its like a combination of (s-189& us05) or something. Ive always found it to be highly drinkable but as mentioned above it does take some time, ...weeks (1-5) it tastes like a Mexican salad dressing, week (6 )& beyond its mariachi time! For light & mid strength beers i prime my bottles with dme, so i always try & leave them longer in the bottle, i have a phobia of drinking a malty beer spider. Chin up brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 is it apple taste or just cidery? Difference being a flavour - which is a fault - and a mouthfeel thing. What beers do you like to drink? (as in commercial ones) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Lab Rat said: How do you sanitise, I've been using Starsan and had no issues. I have been using a no-rinse cleanser (one-step, which is Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate based) and then I use Stellarsan to sanitize. So, while I have no way to know for certain, I feel confident that I am cleaning everything properly. 2 hours ago, Lab Rat said: Are you adding sugar for your bottle fermentation? No, I am using 2 carbonation drops per bottle. Is it possible that the carbonation drops can go bad? 2 hours ago, Lab Rat said: Roughly what temp are they stored at? I am keeping the bottles in the shower in the guest bathroom. We have the thermostat set to cool the house at 19 degrees. However, the house doesn't get that cold (because the AC never shuts off), so I feel confident in saying that the bottles are being kept at least above 20 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Norris! said: I never brew a kit just by itself, I always add hops. I have never tried to use hops or anything other than the HME and an box fermentable. I am still very new and haven't tried anything more advanced.....yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: I have never tried to make that recipe, but with only 500gm of DME, I am not sure it could taste anything but watery, LOL! I thought the same thing - that 500g wouldn't be enough. I asked the guy who runs my LHBS and he said that 500g is the correct amount and that adding another 500g would ruin the beer (he didn't explain how). He did say that if I wanted a higher alcohol content, I could add some sugar. But I decided to just follow the recipe and only use the HME can and LDM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Jumping jack flash said: Ive always found it to be highly drinkable but as mentioned above it does take some time As I was learning about homebrewing before I started my first attempt, I read somewhere to always follow the directions, but to add at least 2 weeks to the time that the directions say to keep it in the bottles. If I follow this advice, then my beer should really be better later this week. I will put one in the fridge on Thursday and try it on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Ben 10 said: is it apple taste or just cidery? Difference being a flavour - which is a fault - and a mouthfeel thing. I think it was just an apple taste. It wasn't that strong, but I did notice it. 2 hours ago, Ben 10 said: What beers do you like to drink? (as in commercial ones) As I am an American, my favorite beers are Blue Moon and Leinenkugel. I don't think either of these are available in Australia, so I am surviving with what is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said: APA kit. Can of light liquid malt. 21L. CCA yeast from a six pack. Ferment at 18c. Dry hop of 40gm of a C Hop or Galaxy. Top drop and dead easy. I have read many people on her recommend the Pale Ale. Unfortunately, I don't really like Pale Ales, so I am unlikely to try to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said: As I am an American, my favorite beers are Blue Moon and Leinenkugel. https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_855551/blue-moon-belgian-white that one? So wheat beers maybe? https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/hefeweizen.html https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/lemon-zest-weizen.html https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/sunkissed-weiss.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab Cat Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 38 minutes ago, EWildcat7 said: No, I am using 2 carbonation drops per bottle. Is it possible that the carbonation drops can go bad? The drops don't go off, but I found I just didn't get much carbing from them. I stopped using after brew 3 or 4. I know most people said there should be a difference between them, but I felt there was. I use plain white sugar and a brew scoop for 740ml bottles now. I'm not familiar with your favourite beers, but it's entirely possible they are fizzy commercial brews, and hone brew won't be the same as these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 10 hours ago, EWildcat7 said: I thought the same thing - that 500g wouldn't be enough. I asked the guy who runs my LHBS and he said that 500g is the correct amount and that adding another 500g would ruin the beer (he didn't explain how). He did say that if I wanted a higher alcohol content, I could add some sugar. But I decided to just follow the recipe and only use the HME can and LDM. Hi EWildcat7. It would not ruin the can per se, but adding more than 500gm of DME would require more yeast. If you didn't add more yeast, then the yeast might be challenged and throw some off flavours. The reason sugar would not do this is because it is much, much easier for yeast to digest / ferment. But sugar thins the body of the brew. I like to add more malt than 500gm. I often add 1.3kg of LME, and do a partial mash as well. What I find works well is to buy two kits at a time and use both yeasts in the first kit (rehydrated) and then collect some slurry from the bottom of the fermenter (about 1/4/ - 1/3 of the yeast cake) to ferment the second kit. If you used BE2 and 500gm of DME, you were a tad over 500gm of DME in total....I believe that BE2 contains 250gm of DME + 500gm = 750 gm DME. Even so, the yeast may have risen to the challenge. The Coopers dry ale yeast is pretty vigorous and it would have constituted 3.5gm of the 7gm of yeast you pitched....However, if you live in the USA, which I gather you do, your kit may have been near expiry. And if you dry pitched the yeast (sprinkled) you may have killed some of them off....Coopers does not encourage users to rehydrate their kit yeasts, but that is probably because most kit brewers are beginners and they don't want to scare them off. Most dry yeast manufacturers recommend that you rehydrate the yeast. Actually, rehydrating yeast is easy-peasy, but it does require a thermometer. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWildcat7 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 5 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: However, if you live in the USA, which I gather you do, your kit may have been near expiry. I live in Canberra, but only for another year and a half - then I will move back to America. 5 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: your kit may have been near expiry Funny you say this - I actually have been making a list of which order I need to make my next beers and it is based solely on when my ingredients are going to expire 5 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said: And if you dry pitched the yeast (sprinkled) you may have killed some of them off....Coopers does not encourage users to rehydrate their kit yeasts, but that is probably because most kit brewers are beginners and they don't want to scare them off. Most dry yeast manufacturers recommend that you rehydrate the yeast. Actually, rehydrating yeast is easy-peasy, but it does require a thermometer. I did dry pitch it because I don't know how to do it any other way. I have not tried to do anything other than following the recipes exactly. In fact, this Aztec Gold was the first time that I even used a recipe, rather than following the directions on the can. But I am about to try to get more bold. I am going to try the Island Toasted Coconut Porter (https://www.diybeer.com/au/recipe/island-toasted-coconut-porter.html). A rep from Coopers told me that this is one of the most advanced recipes they have, so maybe I am jumping too far ahead of where I am, but it is either that or throw the ingredients away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW31 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 My suggestion is follow the recipe, but use W34/70 yeast, you can also add the Cerveza kit yeast if you want, but not essential. Ferment at 12-15C (closer to 15 if using the kit yeast as well), do a diacetyl rest (raise temp to 18C) after 7-10 days or so for 3 days, and lager at 5C for a month or more after bottling. It's never going to be a beer with huge body but it's nice and fresh in the hot weather. I don't get these cidery flavours making this brew so maybe its the yeast. Oh and the reason your first brew went flat is because PET bottles cannot hold carbonation for that long. This probably would have been better to drink after 2 months or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW31 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 There seems to be some divergence of opinion as to how long you should wait before drinking. I made this brew as a lager at the same time as an Artisan Reserve. I put as many bottles as each as possible in my lagering fridge as soon as they were carbonated (about a week from bottling). The Aztec Gold (3.5% abv) was clear and delicious at 4 weeks in the fridge, the Artisan (5.2%) took a couple of weeks longer, actually at 2 months its not perfectly clear yet but getting close. I don't agree that lagers need lengthy conditioning, some ales, especially dark and high alcohol ones, are obviously different, but lagers are best enjoyed young IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 It depends on the beer. Watery Mexican lagers probably aren't going to improve much with longer lagering, but the European styles certainly do. They are much nicer in flavour after 2-3 months of cold storage than they are young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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