Yeast

[Zelly]

Hi there

i am just about to make s coopers dark ale.

should I be using the kit yeast.

Will this  be ok

or should I be using s better yeast like us04.

what would the difference be.

is the kit yeast any good and I should be using it?

if I did use a better yeast could I re use it from the bottom of the bottle to make again 

 

thanks 

[Shamus O'Sean]

Hi Zelly

The kit yeast should be fine as long as the can is in date and you are doing the standard recipe.

I do not know about the difference between the yeasts.  I have used both kit yeasts and US-05 and even combined them for some recipes.  Side-by-side you might notice a difference.

You can harvest the yeast from the fermenter once the beer is finished and bottled.  You can do this with the kit yeast and US-05.

Cheers Shamus

[Otto Von Blotto]

The kit yeast is fine, it's just the amount of it that isn't always enough. For the standard kit and kilo though, it will do the job nicely. 

[ChristinaS1]

Yes, the kit yeast is fine. The results you get depend on how you treat it: not under pitching, keeping the temp stable, and in the optimal range. I like somewhere between 18-22C, at which temps it is pretty clean and neutral. It is a very reliable, vigorous, easy to work with yeast. Gets the job done as long as you don't let the temp get too cold in winter.

As to how S-04 and the kit yeast differ, S-04 has a bit more of an "British" note at warmer temps, a bit bread-y / sour dough. It also is a bit more attenuative (lower FG / drier).  S-04 does have a reputation of stalling sometimes, especially if fermented below 20C. Personally I don't use it much and, when I have, it has never failed.  But I always ferment it at 20-22C.

Rather than collect yeast for reuse from the bottom of your bottles, collect it from the bottom of your fermenter. There are lots of threads on the sloppy slurry method on the forum. The thing is that the more often you reuse the yeast, the greater the chance is that you will have an infected batch, because the bad bugs go along for the ride and multiple as well. If you are reasonably careful with sanitation you are probably safe for two or three re-pitches, and plenty of folks do more. Depends on your tolerance for risk. Safest thing is to use fresh yeast every time. I had an issue with re-pitching once: first batch had a low grade infection, didn't realize it and re-used the yeast, so spoiled the second batch too; which was worse. Two bad batches in a row. Ouch. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[YeastyBoy]

4 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

probably safe for two or three re-pitches, and plenty of folks do more. Depends on your tolerance for risk. Safest thing is to use fresh yeast every time.

Agree that 3 re-pitches keeps the yeast fairly true without too much risk of it spearing off into unwanted territories.

Also from an rational economic perspective, anything more than 4 pitches from a packet of yeast is not really saving you anything is terms of $. At 4 it works at about a $1 a brew for your yeast beyond that number savings are getting marginal.

I try not to leave a yeast slurry in the fridge any longer than a month after collection.

[Otto Von Blotto]

It depends on how you harvest and reuse it. With the sloppy slurry method you probably only want to use it for a few generations, but harvesting from starters I keep them going well over 10 gens. With liquid yeast being about $13-14 a pack, it saves quite a bit.

 

[Mark D Pirate]

1 hour ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It depends on how you harvest and reuse it. With the sloppy slurry method you probably only want to use it for a few generations, but harvesting from starters I keep them going well over 10 gens. With liquid yeast being about $13-14 a pack, it saves quite a bit.

 

Starters really start saving dollars if you're doing triple batches of lager or high gravity and want correct pitching rates .

$75 just in yeast for a brewday is prohibitive , my yeast equipment has paid for itself many times over already 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, that big stout I did was mid 1.080s OG, probably would have needed 4 smack packs to get to a sufficient pitch rate, $50 odd as opposed to about $3-4 for the dry malt to make a starter for it. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

Even easier for lagers. No starter at all and save the 4 bucks on dry malt. Repitch the slurry works great. And the worst you can get is a cleaner lager which is what you really want anyway. 

[Titan]

One thing about yeast. In my early days as a brewer i would take what the lhbs had and pitch without concern, regardless of what they bring to the table. Now when i visit, if they dont have what i want, i google what they have and go elsewhere if its not a good fit. Even to the point of postponing a brew day until the beast (yes beast) is correct.

[Beerlust]

39 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yeah, that big stout I did was mid 1.080s OG, probably would have needed 4 smack packs to get to a sufficient pitch rate, $50 odd as opposed to about $3-4 for the dry malt to make a starter for it. 

I think you might be getting a little carried away there lager man. A standard ale smack pack (according to the manufacturer) can ferment out a 1.060 wort without the need for even a starter. I doubt 4 would be necessary at all. More like 2 with a suitably sized starter.

I do agree about the validity of re-using yeast though of course.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Beerlust]

7 minutes ago, Titan said:

One thing about yeast. In my early days as a brewer i would take what the lhbs had and pitch without concern, regardless of what they bring to the table. Now when i visit, if they dont have what i want, i google what they have and go elsewhere if its not a good fit. Even to the point of postponing a brew day until the beast (yes beast) is correct.

I try to keep some spare ale & lager dry yeast strains in my fridge as backup all the time. If I exhaust one, I replace it next time I go to the brew shop whether I need it for an upcoming brew or not. Having them there has been handy for numerous reasons & numerous times over my home brewing years.

Just my 2 cents,

Lusty.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

12 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

I think you might be getting a little carried away there lager man. A standard ale smack pack (according to the manufacturer) can ferment out a 1.060 wort without the need for even a starter. I doubt 4 would be necessary at all. More like 2 with a suitably sized starter.

I do agree about the validity of re-using yeast though of course.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Dont believe everything you read lusty. The said manufacturer also says most of my belgian yeasts finish between 74 and 78 attenuation. Try 90 to 95. They are close though. Only 15% or so out. 100 million cells is good if your making a mild ale. Thats about it.

[Otto Von Blotto]

32 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

I think you might be getting a little carried away there lager man. A standard ale smack pack (according to the manufacturer) can ferment out a 1.060 wort without the need for even a starter. I doubt 4 would be necessary at all. More like 2 with a suitably sized starter.

I do agree about the validity of re-using yeast though of course.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Not if you are using recommended pitching rates. 100 billion cells, not all of which would be viable into 20 odd litres of 1.060 OG wort is underpitched by more than half. If I remember rightly that batch required about 350 billion cells, so yeah about 4 packs without a starter

[Beer Baron]

It would be good to have Imperial Yeast readily available in Australia. 200 billion cells in every pack

[Zelly]

Thanks all.

so is the coppers real ale kit yeast any good.

temp between 24-25 

or shoukd I do something else 

[Mark D Pirate]

28 minutes ago, Beer Baron said:

It would be good to have Imperial Yeast readily available in Australia. 200 billion cells in every pack

Available here in Radelaide,  he even delivers them to my door for about same price as I'd pay for a WY smackpack. 

Can vouch for customer service from imperial as well,  I asked a few questions and received a prompt and informative reply along with a conversion / equivalent sheet 

 

 

* Edit * Gigayeast are also sold as 200 billion cell pitches,  another quality option 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Mark D Pirate

[Mark D Pirate]

4 minutes ago, Zelly said:

Thanks all.

so is the coppers real ale kit yeast any good.

temp between 24-25 

or shoukd I do something else 

It's a good yeast,  there's just not enough of it. 

I'd personally use S04 as well and ferment at 19 , ramp temp to 21 when krausen starts to drop 

[Zelly]

Thanks 

so your saying use 2 different yeasts?

 

but don’t yeast multiply? And grow 

[Mark D Pirate]

19 minutes ago, Zelly said:

Thanks 

so your saying use 2 different yeasts?

 

but don’t yeast multiply? And grow 

They do multiply , but each time a cell divides you lose nutrients and they can only multiply so much .

The less work they need to do before being able to start munching away and produce nice beer the better ( for you)  

If you just use the package supplied with a basic kit and kilo beer you WILL make beer,  it may not be as good as using a more appropriate sized pitch though or a blend of yeasts 

[Beerlust]

29 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Not if you are using recommended pitching rates. 100 billion cells, not all of which would be viable into 20 odd litres of 1.060 OG wort is underpitched by more than half. If I remember rightly that batch required about 350 billion cells, so yeah about 4 packs without a starter

I respect your yeast knowledge & dedication to yeast re-use. Recommended pitch rates DO NOT equal required pitch rates. They are an over exaggeration for protection purposes developed on the back of commercial practices that cannot be allowed to fail given the giga-litres involved with each batch.

It's fine that you wish to follow the exaggerated pitch rates of commercial brewers with your brews, but suggesting that these rates should be taken as gospel & followed to the letter across the board for home brewers with home brew sized volumes is simply wrong.

I delved into this area to prove yeast cell count validity a number of years ago when I asked PB2 for some figures & help with growth rates from the re-activation process of Coopers Commercial Ale yeast that starts with very measured yeast cell dosages. The final yeast volumes required to easily ferment out brews this yeast was used on were way under the recommended commercial volumes often advised in home brewing circles these days.

Overkill & unnecessary.

Lusty.

[YeastyBoy]

59 minutes ago, Zelly said:

or shoukd I do something else 

Think your post has been hijacked.

Suggest reading a brewing book or trying another forum?

[Beerlust]

3 hours ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Dont believe everything you read lusty. The said manufacturer also says most of my belgian yeasts finish between 74 and 78 attenuation. Try 90 to 95. They are close though. Only 15% or so out. 100 million cells is good if your making a mild ale. Thats about it.

Belgian strains are a whole different kettle of fish. Anyone that has used a few variants of them will know that. Saison strains are particularly high attenuating. Almost all of the "Farmhouse" strains also have high attenuation.

What is the strain you are referring to, & what pitching rate are you using? 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[The Captain!!]

Well if you have time for a podcast. This is very interesting. All about yeast! And can’t remember how many times they have said, don’t worry about the numbers. 

Either way. Worth a listen

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/brew-files-episode-49-starting-right

[Otto Von Blotto]

And perhaps that's why it was reported a number of times to bolt out of the blocks then dawdle along for the last 5 or 10 gravity points. I don't believe that's a characteristic of the yeast, it sounds like a result of not pitching enough in the first place. 

The reason I use those rates, or at least approximately given the figures are all educated predictions rather than measured by actually counting cells, is for consistency and confidence. They work every single time without failure or compromising the quality of the beer. Every ale I brew I pitch yeast, I know it'll be going in 24 hours or less, I know it'll ferment out in 7 days or less without stalling and I know there won't be any crappy off flavours from bad yeast management. I know this because that's what's happened in probably a hundred or more batches over the last 4-5 years that I've been paying more attention to yeast management. If they turn out a bit under expectations it's a recipe design or brew day stuff up issue. 

Consistently underpitching by large amounts is risking outcomes of varying quality. I'm not saying every brew will be bad, just that the risk of it is higher. Anyone serious about brewing great beer wouldn't take such risks. 

I want to brew the best quality I can with every batch, and I do whatever I can within the constraints of a home brewing situation to achieve that. I enjoy the challenge and the competitiveness with myself to achieve it. Pitching the ideal amount of yeast to do the job is not overkill, it's simply a necessary part of the equation for great beer every batch.