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Changing 60 Minute Hop Additions

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I’m really bad at designing recipes and all of my 60 minute additions usually contain the hops that I use in the back end of my hop schedule. 

Sometimes this is more expensive and most likely a waste of hops so this next brew has a 60 minute magnum addition for neutral bittering. 

Last time I tried citra I wasn’t a big fan but I have to try everything twice!!

Feel free to critique any part of my recipe. 

 

Beer: Hoppy Pale Ale 

Batch: 23L

OG: 1.049

FG: 1.009 

IBU: 38

ABV: 5.3%

EBC: 12

 

4.70kgs Pale Malt 90%

0.25kgs Caramunich 1 5% 

0.25kgs Oats 5% (for mouthfeel)  

Mashed at 67 degrees for 60 mins

Mash out at 75 degrees for 10 mins

 

10gms Magnum @60

10gms each of Citra and Amarillo @30

20gms each of Citra and Amarillo @5

10gms each of Citra and Amarillo added after wort dropped to below 80 degrees

30gms each of Citra and Amarillo dry hopped

Yeast: US-05 

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Hi Beer Baron.

The oats will likely contribute to a haziness in the final beer without the use of fining agents &/or a beta-glucan/step mash. If you don't use fining agents throughout your processes I'd expect a little haze (personally never bothers me). CaraPils is a fairly good substitute at around the same weight to give you similar mouthfeel with improved clarity under similar circumstances (IMHO).

Your hop schedule & yeast choice look really good. 😎

Ben10 & others have more experience with cereal mashes than I do, so hopefully they chime in with their thoughts regarding how best to deal with effects produced by the oats.

Best of luck with the brew,

Lusty.

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24 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Hi Beer Baron.

The oats will likely contribute to a haziness in the final beer without the use of fining agents &/or a beta-glucan/step mash. If you don't use fining agents throughout your processes I'd expect a little haze (personally never bothers me). CaraPils is a fairly good substitute at around the same weight to give you similar mouthfeel with improved clarity under similar circumstances (IMHO).

Your hop schedule & yeast choice look really good. 😎

Ben10 & others have more experience with cereal mashes than I do, so hopefully they chime in with their thoughts regarding how best to deal with effects produced by the oats.

Best of luck with the brew,

Lusty.

Thanks for the tip. Hazy beer doesn’t bother me the slightest although I try to make my lagers clear 🤔 

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1 minute ago, Beer Baron said:

Thanks for the tip. Hazy beer doesn’t bother me the slightest although I try to make my lagers clear 🤔 

Oats are more often used in dark beer recipes to improve mouthfeel as due to the darkness of the beer colour the haziness from the oats isn't even noticed. 😉

If I regularly made dark ales & stouts etc. where cloudiness counts for FA, I'd use oats in preference to pretty much any body building/mouthfeel grain as I reckon it's mouthfeel qualities are second to none.

For clarity reasons, it just doesn't seem as flexible as some other grains particularly in lighter coloured beers. If you use a fining agent to clarify a light beer using this grain you strip much of the advantage (mouthfeel-wise) that this grain gives as you are forcing much of the mouthfeel giving properties out of solution.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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Depends on the fining agent. Polyclar doesn't affect malt based particles in the beer so while it does remove haze, it doesn't remove body or mouthfeel. If you're using oats you're probably expecting a bit of haze anyway.

The only thing I'd do is use a kettle fining late in the boil. It won't affect the body or mouthfeel either but it will at least prevent the beer being full of hot break crap.

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I try and use BrewBright in all brews no matter what style but sometimes I forget🙄  

I’m happy with a bit of haze from the oats if it means a better mouthfeel. 

Beer Baron

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Posted (edited)
On 1/3/2019 at 7:37 PM, Beerlust said:

Oats are more often used in dark beer recipes to improve mouthfeel as due to the darkness of the beer colour the haziness from the oats isn't even noticed. 😉

 

Hey Lusty - and all ye Master Brewers - am going to do WB06 Wheat beer next at around 25 deg C with Saf Ale WB06 - but after that back to a dark ale. 

Am keen on getting that creamy head and nice soft mouthfeel... in a dark beer without any concern of clarity.

I have (for brekky) a nice hand oat-roller... so roll fresh oat kernels for porridge which avoids oxidation/rancid factors... is good.

Soooo ... in a 23L brew... with a can of Coopers Dark Ale - or Stout - got both to use up... and plenty of LDME...  so am thinking Can + 2kg LDME...

BUT then how much freshly rolled oats would I use for a standard 23L brew and do I just stew them up in a few L of water and sieve into the Vat or ?

Thank you

Bearded Burbler

Edited by Bearded Burbler

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:36 PM, Beer Baron said:

I’m really bad at designing recipes and all of my 60 minute additions usually contain the hops that I use in the back end of my hop schedule. 

Sometimes this is more expensive and most likely a waste of hops so this next brew has a 60 minute magnum addition for neutral bittering. 

Last time I tried citra I wasn’t a big fan but I have to try everything twice!!

Feel free to critique any part of my recipe. 

 

Beer: Hoppy Pale Ale 

Batch: 23L

OG: 1.049

FG: 1.009 

IBU: 38

ABV: 5.3%

EBC: 12

 

4.70kgs Pale Malt 90%

0.25kgs Caramunich 1 5% 

0.25kgs Oats 5% (for mouthfeel)  

Mashed at 67 degrees for 60 mins

Mash out at 75 degrees for 10 mins

 

10gms Magnum @60

10gms each of Citra and Amarillo @30

20gms each of Citra and Amarillo @5

10gms each of Citra and Amarillo added after wort dropped to below 80 degrees

30gms each of Citra and Amarillo dry hopped

Yeast: US-05 

Gday BB,

Did you end up making this? 

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Hi Burbler.

On 1/5/2019 at 11:14 PM, Bearded Burbler said:

...BUT then how much freshly rolled oats would I use for a standard 23L brew and do I just stew them up in a few L of water and sieve into the Vat or ?

I dabbled with oats a few years ago. As I found out at the time, they need to be added in & mashed with a suitable base malted grain to convert at least some of the starch that is released into solution by the flaked/rolled oats into a fermentable sugar that the yeast can then ferment. If you don't mash it with a base malted grain all you'll end up doing is releasing a starch from the oats into your brew. Not advised. For a kit based brewer, it would be a lot of unnecessary faffing around (IMHO).

On 1/5/2019 at 11:14 PM, Bearded Burbler said:

Soooo ... in a 23L brew... with a can of Coopers Dark Ale - or Stout - got both to use up... and plenty of LDME...  so am thinking Can + 2kg LDME...

You sound like you want to make quite a hefty winter beer here? 😉

Might I suggest... Coopers DIY recipe: Russian Imperial Stout

You can use both the Stout & Dark Ale kits in this one recipe. The guys that have brewed this recipe rave about it. 😎

It looks right up your alley Burbler. 😁

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

Edited by Beerlust
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Hi Beer Baron.

On 1/3/2019 at 6:06 PM, Beer Baron said:

I’m really bad at designing recipes and all of my 60 minute additions usually contain the hops that I use in the back end of my hop schedule. 

Sometimes this is more expensive and most likely a waste of hops so this next brew has a 60 minute magnum addition for neutral bittering. 

Last time I tried citra I wasn’t a big fan but I have to try everything twice!!

Feel free to critique any part of my recipe.

I was just re-reading this post from you. My initial post responses mainly concentrated around the use of oats & not wanting you to experience any excessive haziness from the use of them. The hop schedule you put up is reminiscent of some decent ones that have good balance between malt & hop for an American Pale Ale style beer. There are other ways you can approach the hopping though in this style.

IMHO Citra isn't a very good choice for bittering a beer. It has a very low co-humulone level that makes it very, very smooth even when long boiled. With a bittering addition, you want a hop with some 'bite' for a better word. I think maybe this is why you didn't like the beer you bittered with it.

If you want more hop flavour in your beers then short boil your hop schedule. What I mean by that is start you first addition @ 30mins, not 60mins+. What that will allow you to do is add a larger addition of hops at that point to hit the same IBU mark, & you will retain more flavour from the hop due to it not being boiled for as long. You can actually add an extra 10-15+ IBU's to your overall count for the beer as the bitterness at the glass will not be as harsh due to the shortened hop addition boil times.

My other suggestion is to do a bit of reading on First Wort Hopping. It's a terrific way to retain hop flavour while still creating a bitterness with 'bite' (IMHO).

BTW, how did the beer turn out?

Cheers,

Lusty.

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I have this beer on tap right now. It ended up at 5.6% and is quite a nice beer with a slight hop bite which I like. It does have hope haziness which doesn’t bother me. 

The attached picture is a couple of days after it was drinkable and the tap was warm. The head has improved in the last week. 

The colour is a bit darker that I thought it would be. 

As for FWH I really don’t think there is a difference between FWH and a 60 minute IMO. 

I used heavy 30 minute and late hopping additions in my Pirate Life and that was packed full of hop flavour. 

18582377-3044-4081-BB31-C47862846002.jpeg

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What's your method for FWH? I suspect if the wort is brought up to boil too soon after the addition is made then it won't really work the way it should. It may have more effect with lower AA% hops since you use more of them to reach the same IBU contribution, so theoretically you'd have more of the aroma compounds in there. I'm gonna do something similar to Lusty for my next pale ale, just using Cascade as a FWH addition without any late additions. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

When I do it I put the hops in after the bag has been drained, squeezed out and removed*, then let them steep in the wort for 25 minutes before turning the urn back on to bring the it to boil. This is done to mimic the process used in a traditional multi vessel system where the hops are added to the kettle and the runnings from the mash/sparge are drained in over however long that takes.

*That was my old process. With the pulley I have now able to lift the bag up well above the urn I can add the FWH addition in the last 10 minutes or so of the bag drain process so it still gets its 25-30 minutes steeping but doesn't extend the brew day by as much.

Edited by Otto Von Blotto
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As soon as I lift my basket I add my hops to my Grainfather. After I add the hops I start my sparge so they would get 20-30 minutes in the wort

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Just now, Beer Baron said:

As soon as I lift my basket I add my hops to my Grainfather. After I add the hops I start my sparge so they would get 20-30 minutes in the wort

I do the same.

I have never brewed the same beer using both methods so I find it had to compare.

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The only time I've brewed similar beers with both methods was a couple of pilsners a while back. One used magnum for bittering with Saaz late and the other one used two Saaz additions at FWH and 80 minutes, also with more Saaz late. The latter beer tasted better to me.  

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On 2/4/2019 at 11:20 PM, Beerlust said:

Hi Burbler.

I dabbled with oats a few years ago. As I found out at the time, they need to be added in & mashed with a suitable base malted grain to convert at least some of the starch that is released into solution by the flaked/rolled oats into a fermentable sugar that the yeast can then ferment. If you don't mash it with a base malted grain all you'll end up doing is releasing a starch from the oats into your brew. Not advised. For a kit based brewer, it would be a lot of unnecessary faffing around (IMHO).

You sound like you want to make quite a hefty winter beer here? 😉

Might I suggest... Coopers DIY recipe: Russian Imperial Stout

You can use both the Stout & Dark Ale kits in this one recipe. The guys that have brewed this recipe rave about it. 😎

It looks right up your alley Burbler. 😁

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

Thanks v much Lusty - very good inf.  Was thinking if I added the Oats - for the starch - it might improve my head retention - which is v poor on a pure Dry Malt Extract Brew it seems...  I tried a brew with v little Liq Malt -- all malt -- but most input via DME -- and the head retention was pretty poor... was thinking of rolling some oats and stewing up a la porridge - for a better head retention...  but maybe not such a good idea... guess I could try and report back 🤔  If that starch we are discussing does not help head retention then certainly would be waste of effort.

Yeah that last WB sucker in the picture is pretty winter-hefty ish.   Was thinking of doing a Stout with the added oats...  was thinking oatmeal stout maybe aids in the creamy mouthfeel and head retention with a porridge frame of reference in my mind - but maybe that is just wishful thinking?

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25 minutes ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Was thinking of doing a Stout with the added oats...  was thinking oatmeal stout maybe aids in the creamy mouthfeel and head retention

I added quick oats to my stout for a creamy mouthfeel and some body. I have read that a  high oat content can decrease head retention so if you want a good head maybe consider wheat

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21 hours ago, Beer Baron said:

I added quick oats to my stout for a creamy mouthfeel and some body. I have read that a  high oat content can decrease head retention so if you want a good head maybe consider wheat

Got some cracked wheat - might give that a go - thanks the mighty Beer Baron!!!

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There’s nothing might about the Beer Baron...............Well maybe my ever increasing beer gut!!!!

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