Fail Thread (Mistakes You've Made) 2019

[Otto Von Blotto]

Well my hop sock turned spider finally failed. Trying to hoist it up after the flameout steep and the bloody mesh tore away from the plastic "frame" and fell into the wort. Was able to remove it and squeeze most of it out by holding it against the side and pushing the mash paddle on it, but that's another thing I will need to replace. I suppose it has lasted 7 years so it's done alright. 

[Beerlust]

FWIW, I conducted the experiment I said I would above. The freezer did not turn off at all on it's way down to below zero degrees where I finally stopped it & plugged it back into my temp controller to regulate a fridge temp for my kegs housed in it.

Makes & models aside, as I suspected, good call BlackSands. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[BlackSands]

39 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

It's still running at the moment, temperature down to 9.3 since my last post. However, I haven't checked the compressor for a good hour or more so it may have turned off and on again during that time. 

Just to help clarify for those that are interested: I drew a quick circuit diagram of a thermostatically controlled fridge - this will be typical of the electrics in fridges most of us will be using.  As you can see, that apart from the thermal overload protection device the ONLY thing that controls the compressor is the thermostat.  (I will qualify that by saying that the compressor itself does actually have a 'starter' circuit onboard which controls a starter winding).  

The thermostats have a long capiliary tube with a long bulb at the end filled with oil.  This oil expands and contracts with temperature.  The expanding oil acts on a diaphragm which in turn activates the electrical contacts in the thermostat.  The temperature control knob on the thermostat adjusts the activation point of this mechanism.  These are usually calibrated such that when centered the thermostat activates at around 4ºC.   Some thermostats also have an additional adjustment which allows you to tweak the temperature differential, these are usually factory set.    

Just to add some kind of 'credentials' to what I'm saying: 1978-1982 studied and worked as electronics/electrical engineer, though my tertiary qual is actually in Physics.  1982-1988 worked as such in scientific and medical environment designing/servicing scientific equipment some of which included refrigeration units.  During that time I also designed and built custom electronic temperature control systems... that was long before you could buy an STC-1000 off the shelf for just a few bucks!  

Edited November 16, 2019 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

Still running, in that 40 minutes it's down to 8.4, obviously the warm beer in there will be hindering it hence it the cooling getting slower. If I only had a yeast starter in there it'd probably be pretty much at zero by now. 

It may be the auto defrost that's turning them off in the new ones. I know I've noticed the brew fridge compressor turn on and off during the cooling phase before but perhaps it happens more when it's getting closer to zero than where it is now. It definitely hasn't stayed on continuously all the way down. 

It's also different when the probe is taped to the fermenter because the ambient would get down quicker than the beer, it'd just warm up slower the lower the beer temp gets.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Beerlust]

1 minute ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

...I know I've noticed the brew fridge compressor turn on and off during the cooling phase before but perhaps it happens more when it's getting closer to zero than where it is now. It definitely hasn't stayed on continuously all the way down.

As I mentioned previously, the external temp controllers we use have an adjustable setting in them that only allows power to the attached heating & cooling devices to run for so long before the power is shut off to them. From the STC-1000 & Keg King version I have used, usually 3-5mins by default. From a primary fermenting control standpoint, near enough perfect as it doesn't upset the yeast too much as the temp steps down more gradually from a higher pitching temp.

In your case Kelsey with your old fridge, no obvious external flashing lights to tell you it's still operating, so you have to trust certain things. If you want to test the operation of your fridge then conduct the test I outlined. Just allow the fridge to start at an ambient temp of around 20°C+, plug it directly into the mains & put a probe from your controller separately through the door seal to measure internal temps & then watch. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[BlackSands]

5 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I know I've noticed the brew fridge compressor turn on and off during the cooling phase before but perhaps it happens more when it's getting closer to zero than where it is now. It definitely hasn't stayed on continuously all the way down. 

This is exactly what I've been meaning when I say the fridges thermostat is conflicting with the controller.   Remember the fridge thermostat is not measuring your beer temperature, it's located elsewhere.  The thermostat is turning off the compressor prematurely because it's sensor - the oil-filled probe is saying it's already at set temperature.   It's your controllers sensor however, the one measuring beer temp and the one you actually want to be in FULL control is reporting a higher temperature and hence actually wants the compressor to keep running.  This is precisely why I suggest it's quite a good idea to bypass the fridges thermostat. Get it out of the way so that your controller can do it's job properly without 'fighting' with the thermostat for those last few degrees.         

[Pezzza]

1 hour ago, MUZZY said:

A friend of mine ran a business called Statewide Appliance Spares. He could source parts for anything electrical. Surely there'd be a business out there somewhere that'd do the same for mechanical parts.

Yeah mate I have tried all sorts...  the problem is this a rubber diaphragm and they perish over time... so old stuff - if people have it - is likely to be in the same state...  and it seems that I am not the only one with this problem.  Anyway... I haven't completely given up and am still chasing up a few dry gullies ; )

[Otto Von Blotto]

Ugh. How many times do I have to repeat this? External temperature controllers like we use don't f**k with the fridge thermostat or anything else in it, unless you hard wire them into the fridge's electronics. All they do is turn power on and off, that's it. So no, they don't conflict with the fridge thermostat, they don't switch it off after a certain amount of time before it hits set temperature, they don't make the compressor do anything it isn't programmed to do. It's just a computerized version of standing there turning the wall switch on and off.

The way it's running right now is no different to plugging it straight into the mains. The controller will leave the power on to the fridge for as long as it takes it to get it down to the set temperature, what the compressor does or doesn't do is totally independent of the controller. You can test it by simply opening the fridge, if the light comes on then the power is obviously still on, regardless of whether or not the compressor is on. 

As I've said today, the controller probe is dangling in the fridge, not measuring the brew temperature. I do this in the warmer weather because I've found it struggles to get the brew itself down to the set temperature of zero, so it allows the fridge some relief. In the cooler weather it works fine to leave it as is from fermentation. In that instance it drops quite quickly at first then slows down as the beer temperature gets closer to the ambient temperature inside the fridge which is completely normal and expected. It's not a fault in the fridge, it's not because things are fighting each other, it's just basic bloody physics. The closer the beer and ambient temperatures are, the slower they both change.

[BlackSands]

3 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Ugh. How many times do I have to repeat this? External temperature controllers like we use don't f**k with the fridge thermostat or anything else in it, unless you hard wire them into the fridge's electronics. All they do is turn power on and off, that's it. So no, they don't conflict with the fridge thermostat, they don't switch it off after a certain amount of time before it hits set temperature, they don't make the compressor do anything it isn't programmed to do. It's just a computerized version of standing there turning the wall switch on and off.

The way it's running right now is no different to plugging it straight into the mains. The controller will leave the power on to the fridge for as long as it takes it to get it down to the set temperature, what the compressor does or doesn't do is totally independent of the controller. You can test it by simply opening the fridge, if the light comes on then the power is obviously still on, regardless of whether or not the compressor is on. 

As I've said today, the controller probe is dangling in the fridge, not measuring the brew temperature. I do this in the warmer weather because I've found it struggles to get the brew itself down to the set temperature of zero, so it allows the fridge some relief. In the cooler weather it works fine to leave it as is from fermentation. In that instance it drops quite quickly at first then slows down as the beer temperature gets closer to the ambient temperature inside the fridge which is completely normal and expected. It's not a fault in the fridge, it's not because things are fighting each other, it's just basic bloody physics. The closer the beer and ambient temperatures are, the slower they both change.

You misunderstand.  I'm not sure how else I can explain this to you?   It is correct that all the controller does is turn power on and off to the fridge. It is also correct that the fridges thermostat also, independently turns off the compressor... essentially the same as turning the power off . If the thermostat has already turned off the compressor because it is at it's set temperature then your contoller becomes irrelevant.  It can turn on and off the power to the fridge all it likes but if the thermostat has the compressor off already then your controller is no longer in control.  Surely you get that?  

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, that's the whole point I'm trying to make and pretty much what I just said. It's Lusty who still doesn't seem to grasp that concept going by his last post. 

The point still remains that the beer temperature will change/drop more slowly as it gets closer to the ambient temperature surrounding it. This in itself doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the fridge or that it needs any mods, because the same thing would occur whenever you put room temperature things in the kitchen fridge. If it fails to get down at all, then fair enough.

I've noted my reasons for changing the cold crash process in regard to the temp probe already. Considering the temperature under the patio probably gets up to around 40 degrees or more in the hottest part of the day, it's not really surprising that the beer temperature struggles to reach zero since the fridge would have to go down to between about -2 and 1 to get it there. It gets to zero no trouble but lower it struggles at this time of year. The beer is still cold enough for the process to work however. 

[BlackSands]

4 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Yes, that's the whole point I'm trying to make and pretty much what I just said. It's Lusty who still doesn't seem to grasp that concept going by his last post. 

The point still remains that the beer temperature will change/drop more slowly as it gets closer to the ambient temperature surrounding it. This in itself doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the fridge or that it needs any mods, because the same thing would occur whenever you put room temperature things in the kitchen fridge. If it fails to get down at all, then fair enough.

I've noted my reasons for changing the cold crash process in regard to the temp probe already. Considering the temperature under the patio probably gets up to around 40 degrees or more in the hottest part of the day, it's not really surprising that the beer temperature struggles to reach zero since the fridge would have to go down to between about -2 and 1 to get it there. It gets to zero no trouble but lower it struggles at this time of year. The beer is still cold enough for the process to work however. 

I think your talk of your cold crash process, though interesting is off-topic.

Let's review Lusty's comment that for me was the key statement that triggered the discussion: 

Quote

Gets down to about 7-8°C & won't go any lower.  

I reinforced that experience with my own account of a fridge that wouldn't go below 6ºC.    

It is true when you say the temperature drop will follow a logarithmic-type decay as it approaches set point.   I assert and maintain that the last few degrees is where things are potentially quite problematic - particularly if that thermostat has a problem as in the two cases cited above. 

Let's say you're performing a cold-crash with a well-working fridge and thermostat set to minimum and you set your controller to 0ºC.   It's probe in normal circumstances is strapped to the side of the FV.  The thermostat however is monitoring temperature near the evaporation coils.   As the temperature gradually drops - quite quickly at first, but gradually getting slower and slower as mentioned, but still approaching the set temperature.  Now somewhere above that set temperature the thermostat, which are inherently imprecise devices,  with a wide differential and a 'sensor' located next to the coils already 'thinks' it's at 0ºC and subsequently shuts off the compressor.  Meanwhile your controller is reading say 1.6ºC and therefore thinks more cooling is still required hence is still providing power to the fridge,  BUT... the compressor is off - so there's no cooling.   Consequently the fridge temperature slowly begins to rise.  Eventually the thermostat responds to this and switches the compressor back on.  The fridge begins to cool again.   The beer, because of it's high thermal mass however has largely held onto the 1.6ºC -   but now it continues to cool some more but then eventually the thermostat again switches the compressor off thinking 0ºC has once again been reached.  By now your FV temp is at say 1.2ºC.   So, I think it's clear that the thermostat is in now largely in control and your controller has largely lost control and it's only because of the thermal mass of your brew that it's able to be incrementally nudged down toward 0ºC ... but this process is now slowed up a LOT more than it would otherwise be if the thermostat wasn't getting in the way and hindering progress.   This 'interference' by the thermostat is far more obvious of course with the two faulty thermostats mentioned above where the compressor is being shut off far too prematurely.  Controller is set to 0ºC, but thermostat triggers at 6-8ºC.  So, the thermostat is in control, not the controller.    

I think people with fridges (as opposed to freezers) generally report around 24 hours to cool to around 0ºC.   Bypass the fridge thermostat and you can halve that time and it will no longer struggle to go below 0ºC.  It'll keep going to WELL below freezing!   Freezers use the same compressors as fridges, they just have thermostats calibrated to lower temperatures so this issue under discussion is far less likely to be a problem for a freezer unless there is an actual fault with the compressor or thermostat of course.  If you don't want to bypass your fridges thermostat then consider replacing it with a freezer thermostat!  But I think you'll find the first option is cheaper and easier 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That wasn't the post of his I was referring to. 

Besides that, is there really any advantage gained by reducing the time it takes to get the beer to zero or wherever anyway? Sharp temperature drops are known to shock yeast, which isn't really ideal if you are relying on it to carbonate bottles. I've also noted at least with lagers, that slowly dropping the temp down produces a better beer. I've yet to try it on an ale although I doubt it will make a difference since the slow ramp with lagers assists the yeast in cleaning up and ale yeast don't work that low, but might do it anyway just out of curiosity now I've got two fridges and more available time for each batch. 

What you're saying about the thermostat etc. is quite correct but I don't see this as an issue. The same thing occurs in any other fridge when something warmer is put into it and nobody cares because it does chill down eventually, so why is it such an issue when it's a fermenter full of beer? It still gets there, whether it's in 12 hours or 24ish is of no concern to me. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[BlackSands]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

 Sharp temperature drops are known to shock yeast, which isn't really ideal if you are relying on it to carbonate bottles. I've also noted at least with lagers, that slowly dropping the temp down produces a better beer.

Well, as you might have guessed your favourite team over at Brulosophy tested this very variable:

Quote

...participants in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish a Helles cold crashed from 56°F/13°C to 36°F/2°F in 1 hour from one cold crashed gradually over a 10 day period.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, well as you know I take their results with a grain of salt. My experience differs from that, but I'm also bringing them down from 18, not 13. Maybe others don't have the same experience I did, but I find it works better. Bottle carbonation is obviously not a concern these days though. I used to drop them straight to zero but I now bring them down more slowly to 3. They go to zero or close to it once they're kegged and in that fridge. 

I'm guessing he used a freezer or brewed a small batch, because no fridge would drop a 20 odd litre batch down by 9 degrees that quickly. They take a good few hours just to chill one bottle. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Otto Von Blotto

[Journeyman]

 This is like watching mummy and daddy squabbling.

Interesting though...

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I think after all of it we're in agreement about how the controllers actually work, other than Lusty who after all these years still doesn't seem to grasp the concept that they don't have any influence over the fridge other than powering on and off. Otherwise, just a minor difference of opinion about the importance of how quickly it drops a batch down to cold crash. 24 hours is not excessive IMO, in fact it's quite normal, my kegs take about that long to get down, and probably another day to fully stabilise. It's not something I'm concerned about because they get there, if they were stuck somewhere significantly higher like they were in the old kegerator and like Lusty had with his freezer then there would be cause for concern, which is why we both replaced the offending items. End result here is nice cold beer again, not just getting to about 5 degrees in the keg and ending up 4-5 degrees higher than that in the glass. Might work for some styles but I didn't really enjoy it much, especially with lagers.

[Marty_G]

Just on the concept of cold crashing: if you are kegging and force carbing is a crash even necessary?  

[BlackSands]

12 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I'm guessing he used a freezer or brewed a small batch...

No....  they used a glycol chiller.  Nice for those who that can afford them and those who are really serious about rapid chilling.  I used to sell them (well, actually only sold one) for around $1300. 

  

 

[BlackSands]

22 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Just on the concept of cold crashing: if you are kegging and force carbing is a crash even necessary?  

Well, they're two completely independent things.  Forced carbonation doesn't negate the clarifying benefits of CC'ing though a CC is of course optional in any situation whether you're kegging, bottling or whatever.    

Edited November 16, 2019 by BlackSands

[Otto Von Blotto]

That would certainly do it. I thought about that for chilling the tap font but then decided it was way too expensive, and I haven't needed it anyway. 

[Marty_G]

6 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

Well, they're two completely independent things. 

Yep get that, if you force carb you don't generate the particulates that are produced in secondary fermentation and also needs to be done at ambient.  When force carbing one just hooks it up to the gas and store in fridge till ready so the storage is actually a cold crash.  So with loads of kegs it is straight from the FV to the fridge. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[BlackSands]

5 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

Yep get that, if you force carb you don't generate the particulates that are produced in secondary fermentation and also needs to be done at ambient.  When force carbing one just hooks it up to the gas and store in fridge till ready so the storage is actually a cold crash.  So with loads of kegs it is straight from the FV to the fridge. 

Well, yeah you are essentially CC'ing though your storage temperature might not be as low as a typical CC?   

The CC is of course conducted in the FV prior to packaging so any particulates should have hopefully already settled out by the time the beer is transferred to keg or bottle.   For those that bottle the secondary fermentation you speak of occurs in the bottle, but after an effective CC there should be no particulates finding their way into the bottles.   In fact, if you don't CC before kegging then you will likely have particulates settling out in your keg instead. 

[Marty_G]

18 minutes ago, BlackSands said:

 In fact, if you don't CC before kegging then you will likely have particulates settling out in your keg instead. 

I keg, and I CC for about 3 days at 2 degree in the FV and still have particulates in the keg. It is really quite surprising how much one gets.  However, the son in-law, who only brews ales, is very impatient and basically drink green beer.  Goes from FV to keg, once the FG is stable, so about 6 days. Then stores in his kegger under pressure until it is carbonated so he is drinking week old beer and his reasoning is the week in the kegger before drinking is the cold crash.  The only difference he has found is the 1st pull has loads of sediment.  

 

If you bottle I would consider a CC essential. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by MartyG1525230263

[Otto Von Blotto]

Maybe not necessary but it still reduces the amount of sediment making its way out of the FV. Of course, the beer is effectively cold crashing in the keg so I get where you're coming from there. 

I prefer to give them at least a week cold crash before kegging. Yes I still get yeast in the keg but it's bugger all and the first pour is generally pretty clear. 

[BlackSands]

14 minutes ago, MartyG1525230263 said:

I keg, and I CC for about 3 days at 2 degree in the FV and still have particulates in the keg. It is really quite surprising how much one gets. 

I've been varying my CC durations with mixed results.  I think it's fair to say there's a few variables that come into play.  So far I haven't had a problem with particulates in the bottles... just varying amounts of yeast sediment.   

The longest CC I've done was 6 days.  That particular darker beer (late hops but no dry) was crystal clear up top but still hazy at the bottom of the FV when I bottled.  All bottles were clear the next day and only a VERY light dusting of yeast settled in the bottles.   It served up at fridge temp nice and bright.  I've also had a similar result with a couple of brews after only  1.5 days CC -  though were slightly hazy at bottling they served up bright.   However, more recent brews, with a 3 or 4 day CC haven't been so good -  quite hazy on bottling day and a slight chill haze when served at fridge temp (4ºC).    I can't really make sense of these mixed results, but I am tempted to conclude that a longer CC would probably take care of any issues - apart from impatience!     

Edited November 17, 2019 by BlackSands