RDWHAHB - WHAT ARE YOU DRINKING IN 2019?

[PaddyBrew2]

My last Witbeir.  Come on England. Beat those cocky ba$tard$

[Hilltop hops]

1 hour ago, PaddyBrew2 said:

My last Witbeir.  Come on England. Beat those cocky ba$tard$

Hey PaddyBrew2, hope you're doing ok. That beer either has an iceberg or half a slice of rockmelon in it! I'm having a few FWK Pales and Simcoe single hop IPAs. Take care mate enjoy the win. 

[PaddyBrew2]

 Just some navel orange.  I was in Belgium before and that’s how they serve the Witbeir

how does the fwk taste 

[der kleine Drache]

Labeling my Strange Fruit Ale (based on Fruit Salad Ale) and having a taste. Not so fruity but very nice. Nice bitterness. 

[BlackSands]

What The Hell-es This?

That's the name of the beer, a Munich Helles and it's also a very good question!  I don't generally brew lagers, though I have done a few hoppy NZ Pilsners.  Technically this isn't even a lager because though fermented cold (13ºC) I actually used Nottingham ale yeast.  I (and others) were interested to know how well this yeast actually performs at cooler temps - it certainly had no trouble chomping through this brew.  At time of bottling the sample tasted surprisingly crisp and clean, though I realise the beer was also sitting at around 1ºC at the time and that cold temp can tend to give a false impression of 'crisp'.  

It would also seem this is about as pale a beer as you can get when using LME and it's certainly the lightest coloured partial mash beer I've brewed.  To achieve 'straw' I'd have to sub in DME or brew as AG, but for the style the colour is where it should be.   This is based on a Coopers Cerveza can (40%), one of their lightest coloured kits and partnered with Gladfield German pilsner malt and some vienna for good measure.   Hops were a single late addition of Wakatu - chosen because of it's German (Hallertau) lineage.      

The beer hasn't been lagered, and won't be and, as is my usual habit I thought I'd have 'sneak peak' tasting.  At this stage it's not looking good -  it's way too sweet for my tastes and stylistically that's a total fail.  It's a low IBU style, this one is estimated at around 20IBU but I wonder if the higher than expected (FG-1.013) is actually what's responsible for the cloying sweetness? Odd, because Nottingham usually attenuates pretty dry  -  certainly when used for ales at ale fermentation temps.  

Anyway, apart from this sweetness issue I think this beer would have actually been a pretty good brew otherwise.   For now, I think I'll just put this one aside for a while and reevaluate at some later date.    

Edited October 27, 2019 by BlackSands

[ChristinaS1]

On 10/20/2019 at 3:44 AM, Beerlust said:

The northern parts of America get bloody cold. On the East coast places like New York, Maine, Massachusetts, & on the West coast, Places like Oregon, & Washington, then the mountain country in the central North like Colorado, Utah, Wyoming. You'll find their Pale Ales generally carry a lot more colour there for obvious reasons. The lighter fruit bombs usually only come out in the warmer months as they are not very satisfying when it's below zero outside. 

I am not arguing about darker beers being more appealing in winter, but the Pacific Northwest states of Oregon and Washington have rather mild winters. They are not as cold in winter as the New England states, home to those lighter fruit bombs.

It is probably not an accident that NEIPAs tend to be lighter in colour. High percentages of crystal malts reduce the stability of beer. The Maillard compounds accelerate oxidation in the presence of metal ions such as iron or copper. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I've done a few Helles style lagers, the first one or two I bittered to about 22 IBU and they were too sweet. Subsequently I increased it to about 28-29 and this worked much better. 

The discrepancy may be in the fact that the style guide is probably based on post fermentation IBU, and recipes are usually constructed with pre fermentation IBU.

[BlackSands]

6 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I've done a few Helles style lagers, the first one or two I bittered to about 22 IBU and they were too sweet. Subsequently I increased it to about 28-29 and this worked much better. 

The discrepancy may be in the fact that the style guide is probably based on post fermentation IBU, and recipes are usually constructed with pre fermentation IBU.

Glad to know it's not just me that finds this style too sweet.  The Beersmith IBU was 20.4.  No idea where the IBU's ended up in the final beer though...   but there's clearly not enough of them! 

[BlackSands]

Back to a style I know always delivers...  the ever trusty English Bitter.   This one is built on the Coopers RA can (40%) paired up with maris otter and classic UK hops, fuggles and goldings. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That's just it, I don't usually find the style too sweet if I drink a commercial one like spaten or something. To get mine similarly balanced I had to up the IBU to the high 20s, however fermentation may well have dropped it back closer to the lower 20s. 

[BlackSands]

8 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That's just it, I don't usually find the style too sweet if I drink a commercial one like spaten or something. To get mine similarly balanced I had to up the IBU to the high 20s, however fermentation may well have dropped it back closer to the lower 20s. 

I've never seen one of these on the shelves here so have never tried one.   Didn't really know what to expect to be honest.  

[Hilltop hops]

On 10/26/2019 at 10:32 PM, PaddyBrew2 said:

 Just some navel orange.  I was in Belgium before and that’s how they serve the Witbeir

how does the fwk taste 

Fwk All Inn Mercenary Pale is good. I've made it a few times when I haven't got time to do an AG. 

[ben 10]

Drinking my wheat, trying to empty the keg.......  chunt....

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, BlackSands said:

I've never seen one of these on the shelves here so have never tried one.   Didn't really know what to expect to be honest.  

Fair point. I've never seen one in bottle shops either actually, but I've tried them at these Bavarian bier places they have here.

[Pezzza]

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:30 PM, elLachlano said:

Nice Cactus!

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, ChristinaS1 said:

High percentages of crystal malts reduce the stability of beer. The Maillard compounds accelerate oxidation in the presence of metal ions such as iron or copper. 

Out of curiosity, what would be considered a "high percentage"? And if this works on a sliding scale, can you determine the likely lifespan of your beer before oxidation issues begin to take hold?

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Pezzza]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:24 PM, BlackSands said:

What The Hell-es This?

That's the name of the beer, a Munich Helles and it's also a very good question!  I don't generally brew lagers, though I have done a few hoppy NZ Pilsners.  Technically this isn't even a lager because though fermented cold (13ºC) I actually used Nottingham ale yeast.  I (and others) were interested to know how well this yeast actually performs at cooler temps - it certainly had no trouble chomping through this brew.  At time of bottling the sample tasted surprisingly crisp and clean, though I realise the beer was also sitting at around 1ºC at the time and that cold temp can tend to give a false impression of 'crisp'.  

It would also seem this is about as pale a beer as you can get when using LME and it's certainly the lightest coloured partial mash beer I've brewed.  To achieve 'straw' I'd have to sub in DME or brew as AG, but for the style the colour is where it should be.   This is based on a Coopers Cerveza can (40%), one of their lightest coloured kits and partnered with Gladfield German pilsner malt and some vienna for good measure.   Hops were a single late addition of Wakatu - chosen because of it's German (Hallertau) lineage.      

The beer hasn't been lagered, and won't be and, as is my usual habit I thought I'd have 'sneak peak' tasting.  At this stage it's not looking good -  it's way too sweet for my tastes and stylistically that's a total fail.  It's a low IBU style, this one is estimated at around 20IBU but I wonder if the higher than expected (FG-1.013) is actually what's responsible for the cloying sweetness? Odd, because Nottingham usually attenuates pretty dry  -  certainly when used for ales at ale fermentation temps.  

Anyway, apart from this sweetness issue I think this beer would have actually been a pretty good brew otherwise.   For now, I think I'll just put this one aside for a while and reevaluate at some later date.    

Are you trying to distract us from the World Cup Result BS with this particularly wonderful and detailed brew analysis?

[Naughty Corner Brewing]

1 hour ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Nice Cactus!

I heard he was a prick!

[ChristinaS1]

1 hour ago, Beerlust said:

Out of curiosity, what would be considered a "high percentage"? And if this works on a sliding scale, can you determine the likely lifespan of your beer before oxidation issues begin to take hold?

Cheers,

Lusty.

Hi Lusty,

Sorry, I can't answer your questions; I was only able to read the abstract. My guess is that it does work on a sliding scale, but how much is safe from an oxidation perspective would be influenced by your brewing water. The more iron and copper in it, the worse; the less the better....It might be worth looking at award winning NEIPA recipes. Many of the ones I have seen have no crystal malt at all, or maybe 2% of light coloured ones such as honey malt, or C15L. 

Over on the Pacific West Coast,  Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River, maker of Pliny the Elder, Pliny the Younger, and many other sought after West Coast style IPAs, recommends no more than 5% of C45L, which is a relatively light colour, but he himself uses 3.5-4% in his single and double IPAs. 

https://beerandwinejournal.com/hoppy-malts-and-grain-bill/

By that standard, anything more than 5% would be high for an IPA, and lighter is better (fewer Maillard reactions). A style with less late hops can probably handle higher percentages and darker colours. 

Cheers,

Christina. 

[Beerlust]

Hello Blacksands.

On 10/27/2019 at 12:54 PM, BlackSands said:

What The Hell-es This?

...Technically this isn't even a lager because though fermented cold (13ºC) I actually used Nottingham ale yeast.  I (and others) were interested to know how well this yeast actually performs at cooler temps - it certainly had no trouble chomping through this brew.  At time of bottling the sample tasted surprisingly crisp and clean, though I realise the beer was also sitting at around 1ºC at the time and that cold temp can tend to give a false impression of 'crisp'.  

...The beer hasn't been lagered, and won't be and, as is my usual habit I thought I'd have 'sneak peak' tasting.  At this stage it's not looking good -  it's way too sweet for my tastes and stylistically that's a total fail.  It's a low IBU style, this one is estimated at around 20IBU but I wonder if the higher than expected (FG-1.013) is actually what's responsible for the cloying sweetness? Odd, because Nottingham usually attenuates pretty dry  -  certainly when used for ales at ale fermentation temps.  

Anyway, apart from this sweetness issue I think this beer would have actually been a pretty good brew otherwise.   For now, I think I'll just put this one aside for a while and reevaluate at some later date. 

What you have brewed is often referred to as a "pseudo-lager". For those unaware, the term comes from using an ale strain capable of fermenting the brew at typical low lager yeast strain ferment temperatures. I trialled some brews a number of years back with this exact ale strain & found the final beers lacking true malt character that a lager strain would impart. Clean & crisp though they were.

There is literature attached to certain ale yeast strains by the major yeast companies that suggest a diacetyl rest if fermenting these strains at lower temperatures, much like the advice attached to lager yeast strains fermented at these same temperatures. Based on your comment of "cloying sweetness" you may well have encountered diacetyl (a butterscotch-like sweetness) from your low ferment temperature & without doing a diacetyl rest towards the end of primary ferment, or naturally secondary fermenting (carbonating) your bottled beer above 18°C.

I don't proclaim to be an expert of knowledge in this area, but it does seem to fit. PB2 once said, a diacetyl rest can be performed as part of secondary fermentation (carbonation) in the bottle. I took that as meaning it can happen while the yeast are active (fermenting the priming sugars), but it may well occur outside & beyond that part of conditioning. You would need to seek more absolute info about that above my current knowledge though as I'm not sure whether this can dissipate with conditioning past the secondary fermentation phase. If you secondary fermented the beer in the bottle at a sub 18°C much like the primary ferment the diacetyl may have remained present.

I brewed a lager once & forgot the diacetyl rest & kegged it. Not a mistake I'll make again as it was awful, could barely handle a glass of it in one sitting.

I hope that's not what you have before you right now, & hope you can salvage it to an enjoyable level.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Beerlust]

Hi Christina.

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

Sorry, I can't answer your questions; I was only able to read the abstract.

Then as someone trying to take something definitive from the comments to move forward with my brewing, how can I now do that given you've just stated this is based from what you were able to read from an abstract source? 

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

...My guess is that it does work on a sliding scale, but how much is safe from an oxidation perspective would be influenced by your brewing water. The more iron and copper in it, the worse; the less the better....It might be worth looking at award winning NEIPA recipes. Many of the ones I have seen have no crystal malt at all, or maybe 2% of light coloured ones such as honey malt, or C15L.

The NEIPA category of beers is a very, very small category of beer based on commercial volume sales & interest by the general public across the globe. The malt bill is very light malted using pale/pilsner, wheat, oats etc, so really doesn't involve crystal malts as any major part of their make-up. I'm not the least bit surprised those you've come across have less than 2% of lighter versions.

1 hour ago, ChristinaS1 said:

...Over on the Pacific West Coast,  Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River, maker of Pliny the Elder, Pliny the Younger, and many other sought after West Coast style IPAs, recommends no more than 5% of C45L, which is a relatively light colour, but he himself uses 3.5-4% in his single and double IPAs. 

I have a lot of respect for this guy & his processes. I've learned a lot from reading posts of his, watching videos, & listening to podcasts where he speaks about brewing.  The thing is as you move up the ABV% scale with the beers you are aiming to produce, you generally don't need to increase the crystal malt percentages with those ABV% increases. The natural fermentability of base malts generally carries that wanted increase in malt intensity all on it's own.

To the best of my knowledge Vinnie does not produce a commercial beer below 4.8% (happy to be corrected). If he did, I guarantee his percentages of heavier malted grains including crystal malts would increase as part of the grist if he wished to carry a decent malt flavour due to the increased dilution factor. Beers such as Brewdog's "Nanny State" are a good example of the percentage shifts often required in certain situations.

All beers are about balances. You can break a lot of pre-designed moulds for some beer styles, provided you know how to re-balance them in other areas so that the end result is still excepted as being representative of the style. The rules are set, the boundaries aren't.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[BlackSands]

11 hours ago, Bearded Burbler said:

Are you trying to distract us from the World Cup Result BS with this particularly wonderful and detailed brew analysis?

World Cup? What world cup?  

[Pezzza]

11 hours ago, BlackSands said:

World Cup? What world cup?  

Me too... 

Thankfully I think the cricket season has started...

[porschemad911]

On 10/27/2019 at 1:24 PM, BlackSands said:

At this stage it's not looking good -  it's way too sweet for my tastes

Same with my festbier based on the Cerveza kit with no extra hops added. 

[ChristinaS1]

11 hours ago, porschemad911 said:

Same with my festbier based on the Cerveza kit with no extra hops added. 

Just putting my Oktoberfest, also based on the Cervesa kit, on CO2. I did add some extra hops. Fingers crossed.

Cheers,

Christina.