Coopers suggested temps

[jamesf1945]

Newbie question here: Are the Coopers suggested temps brew temps for their lager wrong? I brewed within the range of 21 to 26 (average 24) and ended up with a really odd tasting beer - very fruity sweet/sour taste. (Looking up the brew temp for other lagers suggested 7-15 degrees). Would this be temperature related or an infected brew? The final product is completely clear and doesnt have that cloudy infected look.

[Hairy]

The Coopers Original Series Lager comes with an ale yeast and not a Lager yeast. Ale yeasts are fermented warmer than Lager yeasts.

The ideal temp for the ale yeast is 18-20 degrees but slightly higher will be fine. Mid 20’s is getting a bit high.

How long has the beer been bottled?

[Shamus O'Sean]

19 minutes ago, jamesf1945 said:

Newbie question here: Are the Coopers suggested temps brew temps for their lager wrong? I brewed within the range of 21 to 26 (average 24) and ended up with a really odd tasting beer - very fruity sweet/sour taste. (Looking up the brew temp for other lagers suggested 7-15 degrees). Would this be temperature related or an infected brew? The final product is completely clear and doesnt have that cloudy infected look.

Hi James

Welcome to the Forum.  You will find lots of great advice here.  The people are really helpful.

Your situation sounds like a lot of us found ourselves in having done the first lager.  The yeast that comes with the Lager can is an ale yeast and should be fermented around 18-22°.  It can handle higher temperatures too, but it is better to try to keep it in the lower region.  However, you have done nothing wrong.  Brewing around 24° is a higher temperature that can produce some unusual beer flavours and aromas.  Very similar to what you describe. 

I am not sure what fermentable comes with the Coopers Kit these days.  Mine was Brew Enhancer 1.  The Lager can and BE1 does produce a bit of a cidery beer.  You will very soon find out about other fermentables that will produce much better results.  The best change you can make is to use Light Dry Malt (LDM).  LDM improves the body of a beer and the head retention.

Your research on lagers is correct.  A true lager yeast is best to ferment around 7-15°, and probably better to aim for a narrower band in this range of say 8-12°.

PS Merry Christmas 

Cheers Shamus

[jamesf1945]

Thanks for the help everyone, looks like I now have 23L of odd tasting beer that needs getting rid of (gonna make for an interesting evening).  I think I'll start on a pale ale as soon as summer is over, too hard to keep the wort cool especially with these 35+ days here in QLD. I'll make sure to add more LDM with the next batch.

HAIRY - It has been around 2 1/2 since the beer was bottled and I just opened the first one today.

Enjoy the rest of Christmas

Cheers,

James

[Titan]

Welcome James. Stick around. Cooper assume mass market has no temperature contol that's why they give some high temperatures. Most of the guys here will brew ale at 18 or lager 12 or a couple of point below. Funky flavours will be produced with both styles if temperature is too high.

[BlackSands]

20 hours ago, jamesf1945 said:

I brewed within the range of 21 to 26 (average 24) and ended up with a really odd tasting beer - very fruity sweet/sour taste.

Somewhat contrary to what others have said, I've brewed the kit (ale) yeast in the past quite warm...   in a similar temp range 24 - 25ºC and those beers were generally fine, though perhaps not as good as they could have been if fermented cooler. 

Most newcomers won't have temp control as Titan has suggested AND, with Aussie's high temps generally I think Coopers have subsequently offered up a strain of yeast that is pretty robust and seems to be able to handle warmer than usual temps.  However, generally speaking, a warm ferment plus a minimal 7g of dry yeast does have the potential to cause problems.  You may have had a less than optimal ferment as a result, or it could be a contaminated brew,  or... maybe your issue is simply that the combination of Coopers Lager and Brew Enhancer 1 just doesn't make a great tasting beer! 

 

[BigJilm]

Yeah, Coopers probably shouldn't sell the brew kit with the lager starter in Qld.  The APA is much more forgiving in the Qld climate. 

If you can get hold of an old fridge grab yourself a cheap thermometer off ebay and get some temp control. You will never look back. 

Get a coopers ROTM every now and then to help garner your appreciation for home brewed beer.

Best, Jilm

[Otto Von Blotto]

Actually the ale yeast in the lager kit is better suited to warmer temps than the ale/lager blend yeast in the Australian pale ale kit. 

But generally speaking, a kit and excessive dextrose fermented in the mid 20s isn't gonna produce the greatest beer. You'd be better off with enhancer 3 fermenting in the high teens to low 20s

 

[jamesf1945]

Been doing some temperature control research, how effective would the wet towel and fan method be? At the moment that looks like the cheapest/easiest way to keep the fermenter cool. Will it be enough on a hot day?

[grogdog]

On 12/25/2018 at 4:03 PM, Shamus O'Sean said:

Hi James

Welcome to the Forum.  You will find lots of great advice here.  The people are really helpful.

Your situation sounds like a lot of us found ourselves in having done the first lager.  The yeast that comes with the Lager can is an ale yeast and should be fermented around 18-22°.  It can handle higher temperatures too, but it is better to try to keep it in the lower region.  However, you have done nothing wrong.  Brewing around 24° is a higher temperature that can produce some unusual beer flavours and aromas.  Very similar to what you describe. 

I am not sure what fermentable comes with the Coopers Kit these days.  Mine was Brew Enhancer 1.  The Lager can and BE1 does produce a bit of a cidery beer.  You will very soon find out about other fermentables that will produce much better results.  The best change you can make is to use Light Dry Malt (LDM).  LDM improves the body of a beer and the head retention.

Your research on lagers is correct.  A true lager yeast is best to ferment around 7-15°, and probably better to aim for a narrower band in this range of say 8-12°.

PS Merry Christmas 

Cheers Shamus

This should be printed on a card and included in every coopers kit it's spot on for my early experience and obviously many others. 

[grogdog]

44 minutes ago, jamesf1945 said:

Been doing some temperature control research, how effective would the wet towel and fan method be? At the moment that looks like the cheapest/easiest way to keep the fermenter cool. Will it be enough on a hot day?

You can swapout frozen water bottles in a tub of water or your laundry sink. It becomes an exercise in micromanagement. If you want consistently good beer hassle free, temp control and fridge is a must. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It will work, the frozen bottles in a tub of water will probably work a bit better, it may get annoying constantly swapping them out. A temp controlled fridge isn't as pricey as you may think though. Space is required of course, but they use bugger all electricity. I'm getting a second one in the new year to double production.

[Lab Cat]

Yeah, the extremes of our weather are not good for brewing without temp control. The lager is not a great benchmark though, even when brewed at ideal temperatures. I remember mine as being super bland when I brewed it in August. My amber ale has just bottled and wouldn't you know, we hit a hot patch in Perth last week, and I couldn't get it under 22 degrees, it hovered around 24-26.

It's time for a brew fridge though. I'm working on it... hoping to find a freebie, but cheap ones are on gumtree

[Martkos]

I agree with Otto temp control is the way to go. I picked up a secondhand fridge for $50 and a temp controller off ebay for $50 freight free. Total spend $100. I set mine at 21° and the improvement in beer quality is totally worth the cost.

[Titan]

With the coopers kits as i stated before, these are aimed at mass market, assume no control on temperature. Yeasts have been produced to satisfy this market, very forgiving. Coopers shoud perhaps inform the users the optimal brewing temperatures required for that particular yeast strain. Give the range but also give the optimal.

[BlackSands]

14 hours ago, Titan said:

With the coopers kits as i stated before, these are aimed at mass market, assume no control on temperature. Yeasts have been produced to satisfy this market, very forgiving. Coopers shoud perhaps inform the users the optimal brewing temperatures required for that particular yeast strain. Give the range but also give the optimal.

They do say... 

Quote

 

Try to keep the brew at the lower end of the 21°C-27°C range

 

... so I guess from that we can assume optimal is at around 21ºC     

[Titan]

Haha yes

[PaulW31]

On 12/27/2018 at 7:41 AM, grogdog said:

You can swapout frozen water bottles in a tub of water or your laundry sink. It becomes an exercise in micromanagement. If you want consistently good beer hassle free, temp control and fridge is a must. 

Mine was the best $30 I ever spent. Holds two FV's as well.

[Yuley]

 

On 12/27/2018 at 6:47 AM, jamesf1945 said:

Been doing some temperature control research, how effective would the wet towel and fan method be? At the moment that looks like the cheapest/easiest way to keep the fermenter cool. Will it be enough on a hot day?

How did the wet towel etc work to keep the fermenter cool?

Newbie here too, and struggling with the hot Melbourne days at the moment.

[jamesf1945]

7 hours ago, Yuley said:

 

How did the wet towel etc work to keep the fermenter cool?

Newbie here too, and struggling with the hot Melbourne days at the moment.

Hey mate, I actually ended up using an old bar fridge under the house. It was however to small to fit the big fermenter in so I picked up the little craft beer one (15L) off a mate and began brewing some smaller craft batches from the Mr beer cans. I use a temp controller to keep the ambient temperature around 18 degrees Celsius and so far it seems to be going well. As for the "swamp cooler" on the bigger fermenter; it will lowers the temperature of the large 23L fermenter from an ambient room temp of 30 to around 24, which is still too hot. Couple this with the fact that the fermentation will produce its own heat and I found that it will lower temps by around 4 degrees but this is not enough for the hot Queensland summer. So for now I'll persist with the little one till it cools down a bit.

Hope this helps,

James

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

If using a fridge you're better off measuring and controlling the temp of the brew itself, not the ambient air. That's one advantage of a fridge and controller. It's as simple as taping the probe to the side of the fermenter underneath some foam, and setting the allowable temperature drift on the controller to its lowest setting. This keeps the brew very stable, only moving up and down by tenths of a degree. 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

19 hours ago, Yuley said:

 

How did the wet towel etc work to keep the fermenter cool?

Newbie here too, and struggling with the hot Melbourne days at the moment.

It does work to some degree. I did it a few times in my early days before i was lucky enough to be given a fridge. Never did a swamp cooler but in my mind it would be the most cost effective way im thinking to lower and keep temps stable. 

[Yuley]

Thanks guys. Went with the swamping for the last few days. Kept temps around 22-24. Still obviously to hot, but it was never much of a chance with the Melb heat over the last week. 

Will go with the bar fridge and controller for the next brew. Got the bar fridge set (will have to brew without the collar). Any recommendations on a temperature controller?

Will be trying the brew tomorrow, before bottling (if it gets to that)... could be interesting.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Inkbird controllers are popular, or you can go the stc1000 if you're handy with wiring electronics.

[BlackSands]

On 12/25/2018 at 6:42 PM, jamesf1945 said:

I brewed within the range of 21 to 26 (average 24) and ended up with a really odd tasting beer - very fruity sweet/sour taste.

My daughter (Brisbane) recently brewed the the OS lager + BE1 from the Coopers starter kit - her first ever brew.  Her initial taste description a few days ago was:  "It’s like a sweet/ sour taste"

Conincidence?  Probably not!