Cold Crashing Questions

[wazznotwazz]

Hi.  Some questions on cold crashing for those that have any experience with this. 

 I generally make ales and have recently started kegging. I’d like to know how people generally cold crash. 

• Do you chill the beer down in the fermenter or transfer to another container?
• how long would you chill It for?
• what temperature do you think you need to get the beer down to?

 Cheers

 

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

In the fermenter, for ales a week, usually at zero degrees or as close as I can get to it. I just dropped one down this morning, it'll take until tomorrow morning to get down to 2-3 degrees from the 21 it was sitting at and probably another day to get to zero if it makes it there (very hot lately which affects it), then I'll keg it Monday week.

[wazznotwazz]

Cheers. Seems like I need to get these guys down lower then.

Does it make much difference to get it so cold? Would 5 or 10 degrees be enough? 

Happy either way, just asking. 

[Beerlust]

5 minutes ago, wazznotwazz said:

...Does it make much difference to get it so cold? Would 5 or 10 degrees be enough? 

On this question alone, the colder the temp you are able to create will hasten the drop-out of haze causing particulates.

I cold crash all my brews & just do this disconnecting the temp controller from my fridge & allowing the fridge to chill to its general running temperature (usually around 3-4°C).

Clarity will improve the longer you leave it around these low temperatures. The term "lagering" is built around this lengthened cold conditioning method.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[ben 10]

in the fv

for a few days to two weeks depending on when i need the beer or have time

i go to 1°c

[ben 10]

47 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

"lagering"

lager is literally cold storage.

[Beerlust]

43 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

lager is literally cold storage.

To me "lager" is a beer fermented with a lager yeast strain. How clear it presents is immaterial. The correct time length for "correct" lagering to create improved clarity is somewhat debatable anyway.

A good representation of a true lager should be very clear though.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

To me you are both correct. A lager is fermented with a lager yeast and also the best examples are kept in cold storage for a period of time. 

[Hairy]

You are both correct.

One is a verb (i.e. to lager- cold storage) and the other a noun (a type of beer).

[Hairy]

Just beat me to it Greeny.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Lagering isn't just done to improve clarity Lusty, it's also integral to the flavor of proper lager beer. They always improve the longer they're lagered, flavor smooths out and just improves generally as well. I did some inadvertent experiments with this in my early kegging days; 2 or 3 batches of pilsner were tapped within a week of kegging them and they all improved noticeably over the month or so that they lasted on tap. Unfortunately there aren't any shortcuts to it, but that's a different topic.

To me with cold crashing, the colder you can go the better, because that way it doesn't take as long to drop particulates out. 10 degrees isn't cold crash temp (some lagers are fermented at 5-7 degrees), 5 will do it but lower will drop more out in the same timeframe. 

 

[wazznotwazz]

Thanks guys. Seems my fridge is struggling to get much colder than 6 degrees.

Is there any reason you don't rack the beer to a separate container?

Is there any benefit of cold crashing directly in fermenter?

[Beerlust]

11 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Lagering isn't just done to improve clarity Lusty, it's also integral to the flavor of proper lager beer. They always improve the longer they're lagered, flavor smooths out and just improves generally as well.

I would debate that. Beer flavour improves because of ageing, not necessarily because of what temperature the beer is stored at during this period.

In the case of "lagering" the two just happen to be intertwined.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Perhaps you should do a bit more reading on lagers then. The cold temperatures drop things out which improves the flavor, which may not occur at warmer temps, or if it does it would take forever. The rate at which the temperature is dropped from fermentation/d-rest temps also affects it. A slower ramp down to about 3-4 degrees works better than a straight crash to zero. It puts the yeast into cleanup mode and the slightly warmer temp allows it to keep working. 

There's a very good article on braukaiser about lager brewing which explains it in more detail. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, wazznotwazz said:

Thanks guys. Seems my fridge is struggling to get much colder than 6 degrees.

Is there any reason you don't rack the beer to a separate container?

Is there any benefit of cold crashing directly in fermenter?

Check the temp knob in the fridge is set to the coldest setting. 

The main benefit of leaving in the fermenter is simplicity, but also unless you are doing an extended lagering there is no need to transfer the beer.

[Beerlust]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

Perhaps you should do a bit more reading on lagers then. The cold temperatures drop things out which improves the flavor, which may not occur at warmer temps, or if it does it would take forever.

Clarity doesn't age, malt does. 

We'll agree to disagree on this one.

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Never said it did. All I said was extended lagering drops certain things out of the beer and other reactions occur as well that improve its overall flavor, some of which don't happen at warmer temps. The byproduct of that is improved clarity but the two aren't dependent on each other. You've occasionally accused me of being narrow minded in terms of brewing, but you're displaying that exact mindset here by being unwilling to learn something new that goes against your preconceived ideas.

From this page, the bold one stood out to me and has nothing to do with clarity, actually neither does the second point really. Only the first and third have any real effect on clarity. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

When the beer is conditioned at low temperatures various processes take place that lead to the smooth character which is expected from a lager:

• Proteins and polyphenols (tannins) form agglomerations (basically bind with each other to form larger molecules) which become insoluble and precipitate out of solution. [Nguyen 2007]
• Hop polyphenols will drop out leading to milder hop bitterness
• Yeast sediment which cleans up the beer and removes the yeasty smell and taste associated with young beer
• Some of the alcohols and acids form esters in the beer which leads to new flavor compounds. This process is very slow and becomes only significant after more than 12 weeks [Narziss 2005].
• Some yeast activity may be present which leads to further clean-up and extract reduction of the beer. I oftentimes see another extract drop of 0.1 - 0.2 Plato over the course of a few weeks.

 

I should also add that lager batches I've done that have stayed cold all the way through from the initial ramp down until they're tapped a couple of months later have all been nicer, smoother beers than ones that were kegged and stored at room temperature until tapping, so from that experience it would seem that the temperature does make a difference to the flavor as well as the clarity.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

 

I should also add that lager batches I've done that have stayed cold all the way through from the initial ramp down until they're tapped a couple of months later have all been nicer, smoother beers than ones that were kegged and stored at room temperature until tapping, so from that experience it would seem that the temperature does make a difference to the flavor as well as the clarity.

Makes a lot of difference i agree. So much so that I'm trying to get the missus over the line with a bar fridge to cold condition my kegs. Though she is struggling with the concept. I have heard " we will have one fridge for food and this will be 3 fridges for beer " many times.

[headmaster]

I get the same feedback GREENY! I'm getting the pushback on the third fridge, but I really only want that to store bottles in at cellar temps, would only be working and only just a tad, through the middle of summer. 

But yeah cold conditioning does more than just dropping yeast out, along with that it drops out compounds that can cause astringency for eg. 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Greeny1525229549 said:

Makes a lot of difference i agree. So much so that I'm trying to get the missus over the line with a bar fridge to cold condition my kegs. Though she is struggling with the concept. I have heard " we will have one fridge for food and this will be 3 fridges for beer " many times.

I want one for the same reason, one day I'll get there. I want it for making cured meats as well so they don't take up room in the kitchen fridge while curing so that'll be an advantage, I'll just have to make sure there's enough space for a keg or two as well as the meats.

[wazznotwazz]

We just had the same conversation on the third fridge, for beer...

So let me understand how you guys operate.

In an ideal world are we talking 3 ~ 4 fridges?

1. Fermenting fridge - used to keep fermentation at desired temp
2. Cold crash fridge - used to get fermented beer down close to zero for about a week, depending (guess fridge 1 and 2 can be combined as Lusty describes)
3. Conditioning fridge - used to keep your untapped beer (and your cured meats )
4. Kegging fridge / kegerator - used to serve your tapped beer 

I think I should look into a cool room 

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

3 fridges mate for me. 1. 3 and 4. Your fermentation fridge is good for a cold crash unless you want to do a serious number of batches and want your fermentation fridge to do ferments only. You can get away with 1 if your bottling and 2 if your kegging. However as has been said. A lager does benefit from extended cold storage. In summer when i drink most of my lagers id be cold conditioning. After summer id be using it for cellar type temps for my belgian and dark beers. Im getting close to the fark it moment for a 3rd fridge. Ill beg for forgiveness after i get in trouble. Lol

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, I run two at the moment just for fermentation and kegs on tap. The fermentation fridge is used to cold crash the beers before they're kegged.

I want to get a second fermentation fridge so I can have two batches going at a time instead of only one, and the other fridge primarily for curing meats but if it's big enough then kegs can condition in it as well and maybe excess food, and if it's got a freezer section that can be used for stuff that won't fit in the kitchen one too. Lager kegs would be the priority for that but if there's room I'll probably put ale kegs in as well.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

So i saw a bar fridge on Gumtree at work today. 70 bucks. 5 mins away from home. Dimensions are good. Bugger it. Im going all in. I have my keg conditioning fridge. Can even fit my bucket fermenters. Picked it up and getting my sales story for the missus on the way home before she sees it. Glasses out of the main fridge. My yeast bank out of the main fridge. Everything out of the main fridge!!!. She sees it and i sell the shit out of it. Best sales job ever. Then the comeback. What about the hops in the freezer.. damn. Didn't think of that.

[wazznotwazz]

Well played Greeny.

Sounds like you got 4 out 5 there.

If you had a bar fridge with a freezer, for the hops, I guess you couldn’t fit the kegs upright like that. Are you going to fit a temp controller as well?

The hunt for me is on.

BTW,  my cold crash fridge got down to 3 degrees. Hadn’t been used for 2 years, guess it needed some re-acclimatisation time. Probably helped to stop opening it too .