The Captain!! Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 So I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading on crystal malts and how they perform. I’ve noticed a lot of these very hoppy, high IBU pale ales/IPA’s have a large amount of crystal malts. A common theme I’m seeing is around the 20% mark of total grist being these crystal malts. I’m looking at putting a recipe together that emulates these medium mouthfeel dry pale ales that are very hoppy and theoretically bitter but easy to drink. My query would be that with a middle of the range American Pale Ale OG of 1.054ish and having 20% of the total grist being crystal malts (probably over 3-4 different sorts) be too much sweetness if mashed low (64c) and bittered to around the 45 ibu mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Corner Brewing Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Not knowing a lot about the recipe side, I’d say that going to be pretty sweet, but that amount of ibu is probably going to balance it out ok. Probably end up somewhere in the xpa territory in terms of drinkability. Don’t think it would be a sessionable beer though. Just my 10cent opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Where are these recipes coming from ? In my red ipa there's only 2.2% crystal but there's plenty of spec malt. Big difference between crystal and spec malts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 If you are going to use that much crystal malt, make sure that the majority are 60L or lighter, or it could end up harsh tasting. http://beersmith.com/blog/2017/08/31/harsh-zone-crystal-and-colored-malts-in-beer-brewing/ Personally I don't make IPAs, but I take my cue from NEIPAs when designing my APAs: just 2% Honey Malt, or CaraVienna, and lower IBUs, so that it still tastes balanced. But different strokes for different folks. Good luck with the brew. I will be interested in what you come up with and how you like it. Keep us posted! Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_McGlass Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I'm not sure where you are getting these recipes from either. Most IPAs are low on crystal malts, 2 to 5% or so. Otherwise you don't get the dryness that you mention. SNPA is about 10%, and there are beers with more than 10%, but 20% is not common at all, from what I've seen of searching recipes over the last ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 My standard ones are about 5-6%, but mashed higher around 67. I don't think I'd ever make a beer with 20% crystal. I'm also led to believe that when crystal is mashed, the enzymes in the base malt reduce its influence compared to steeping it on its own where no enzymes are present. I haven't bothered testing this theory as I'm happy with the current outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 For an IPA, 2% light crystal malt and a bit of Munich (maybe 5%) is good. I don't really like the ones that use too much more crystal than this. I do like a 85 / 15 base malt / vienna malt grist for an IPA as well. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Thanks for the replies. Specialty malts may be the answer, is caramalt a specialty malt or a crystal? The recipes have been coming from the brewing network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Caramalt is a light crystal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Isn't crystal a type of specialty malt? Isn't a specialty malt anything that isn't a base malt, generally used as less than 20% of the grist. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Crystal malt is a specialty malt but not all special malt is a crystal malt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Well this is my conundrum. I was thinking Caramalt is a crystal. And also why I’m asking the overall question. I’ve been working on an all cascade beer. While doing some research into all cascade beers I found out that epic was one. The brewing network with Jamil Z can you brew it on brewing classic styles has this recipe on the podcast. They talk to the brewer and he gives the below recipe grist. As soon as I looked at it I’ve gone, nah that’s way too much crystal malts. Hence the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Anything with "cara-" in the name is a crystal malt, even Carapils is a very very light crystal malt. It does sound like a lot of crystal in that recipe but they're all quite light. It'd be different if it was like 15% medium crystal or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Anything with "cara-" in the name is a crystal malt, even Carapils is a very very light crystal malt. That’s what I was led to believe. Then Mark the pirate throws a curveball ha ha ha. What confuses me I guess is that like the responses above all say that 20% is too much, which I agree with, then you get brewers by the likes of Jamil Z brewing this beer and stating that it’s one of the best pale ales he’s ever tasted, makes me wonder about the “guidelines” that most brewers stick by. Agree with ya Kelsey that they are very light crystals and maybe that’s the key. They also state that this beer will finish around 1.011. Which isn’t that sweet really given the 44/45 IBU’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 That’s over a kilo of crystal malt. It is light crystal but it is too much for my taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 If the crystal is being mashed with the base malt then it is possible to reach a "normal" FG rather than have it finish high because the enzymes break down the crystal malt sugars somewhat. It would be different if the crystal malts were steeped on their own. That red ale of mine contains about 6% Caraaroma and 2% black patent and still finishes around 1.010 if I mash it low. I daresay if those grains were steeped on their own the FG would be a bit higher. On the surface it sounds like a lot and too much for my tastes as well but I suppose the only real way to know for sure is to brew it and see how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Actually there's a difference even in carapils depending on which maltster produced it. I only use the weyerman carapils and it's not a crystal malt and still has enough diastic power to self convert but most other malts called carapils are a caramel pilsner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Hiya Captain. I've brewed this style of American Pale Ale & they are @#$%ing delicious! In some instances they can rival an Amber Ale for EBC but don't carry quite as much sweetness due to higher hopping levels, larger quantities of lower EBC Cara malts, & a dry finishing yeast as opposed to a sweeter finishing yeast that you would traditionally use for an Amber Ale. The EBC on your recipe listing (13.3) is actually still quite low. As Kelsey already points out, all of the Cara malts used in the recipe are very light. The sweetness isn't anywhere near the levels some might expect for those weights. Karl Strauss's APA is a great example of this style of beer, & one of my personal favourites. The Little Creatures Pale Ale falls into this category, & I've also had the Epic beers & really rate them too. I'm with Jamil Z on this one. Brew it & keep your hopping levels up. You won't be disappointed. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 I’m going to give this one a crack, I’ll get the weyermann carapils and Bairds caramalt as that’s what they talked about. Thinking of subbing the golden promise though for B.B. Ale malt. The hopping schedule is as follows for this particular beer. The amounts are worked out on 7.5% AA, so will adjust levels once I know the AA amount of the cascade I have in the freezer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Corner Brewing Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Looking forward to hearing how it comes out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 15 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said: medium mouthfeel dry pale ales how do you get dry with a large amount of crystal? most commercial craft beers are too sweet for me, too much crystal - @Beerlust IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WEATHER!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ben 10 said: how do you get dry with a large amount of crystal? most commercial craft beers are too sweet for me, too much crystal - Well I guess I’m about to find out at kegging time. I would consider 1.011 fairly dry for my tastes. Nothing like a dry Saison but still dry enough. ill mash around the 64/65 mark so that’ll be low enough. Your question is around abouts why I’ve asked the topic question. I was a bit taken aback with the amount of crystal that’s in this particar recipe. It’s also the reason I like using the 1450 yeast in some styles. It leaves a nice mouthfeel but drys the beer out to a reasonable level. Hopefully it turns out to be the “best brew ever” ha ha ha. On another note, I’ve been reading about cascade in particular, throwing quite different characters at different boil/steep/dry hop times and is the reason I have started on brewing an all cascade beer. I then noticed this one doing precisely what I’ve been reading, 60min, 30min, 10 min, steep, 2 lots of dry hop at different temps after ferment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 early on i brewed something like this https://byo.com/recipe/sierra-nevada-pale-ale-clone-2/ and it was cloyingly sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The SNPA clone I brew occasionally is quite similar to that linked recipe and doesn't turn out cloying, and I use medium crystal in it The main difference other than that which I can see is the Perle hops are added at 30 minutes in mine instead of 60. The grain percentage is pretty much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 The couple I’ve done previous based on that recipe have been approximately that same grain bills etc I used 2 lots of light crystals. It was sweet but had old hops which I believe made it a less bitter than it should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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