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Mikes15

Red Harry IPA Take II

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Planning to have another go at my Red IPA from last year,

 

So my Take II brew is going to be;-

Fermentables =

- Black rock Light Liquid Malt extract 1.7kg
- LDME 1kg

Grain =

- Gladfield Redback Malt grain 300gms cold steeped in 3ltr 12hrs.

Hop Boil =

- 2ltr water + 3ltr strained steep + 500g of the LDM
- Fuggles (6.7%AA) 40gms @ 60mins
- Cascade (5.5%AA) 15gms @ 30mins
- Nelson Sauvin (11.9%AA) 15gms @ 10mins
- Cascade (5.5%AA) 15gms @ 10mins

20min 75'C steep Hop tea FV addition =

- Pacifica (4.7%AA) 25gms
- Nelson Sauvin (11.9%AA) 25gms

Dry hop =

- Pacifica 25gms
- Nelson Sauvin 10gms
- Cascade 10gms

US-05 yeast

So only a few tweaks,

1- Dropped the Black penant (which was actually Carafa T3)
2- Going up to 300g of Redback (200g previous),
(The brew came out quite dark & Id like a lighter finish)
3-Dropped the 50g sugar as I have the extra 200g of LME from the black rock vs. 1.5kg other suppliers give. 
4-This time Ill make the hop tea that ended up being FO additions last time.

Spec I'm getting from my Calc is;-

OG 1.042
Final Gravity 1.008
ABV 4.45%
IBU 59.75
SRM 6.33

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/717755/red-harry

Thoughts?

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I think it looks like a great beer. I’m not familiar with gladfield malts unfortunately. 

Id just go with it and see how it turns out. What’s the worst that can happen?

I like that your tweaking a beer to get it how you want. Keep at it mate. I went through something like 7-8 batches of pacific ale to get that beer right. 

Good luck with it Mike.

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It's hard to know exactly. I haven't used Redback malt before so hard for me to gauge how much sweetness will be in the final beer from that.

But just based on the BU:GU ratio & expected FG, my gut feel is the beer may present a little too bitter.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck with the brew.

Lusty.

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Just to add to that, the AA% of your hops must be higher than those I put into my recipe listing that you seem to be following. Try & get the BU:GU ratio somewhere closer to 1:1.

What that means is currently your GU = 42, & your BU = 59.75. You want your BU to be a bit closer to 42. Reduce some of your hop amounts so that the IBU of the beer is closer to 42.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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45 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

It's hard to know exactly. I haven't used Redback malt before so hard for me to gauge how much sweetness will be in the final beer from that.

But just based on the BU:GU ratio & expected FG, my gut feel is the beer may present a little too bitter.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck with the brew.

Lusty.

Hops are a different Spec;-

(Was / Is)
Fuggles 4.5%  VS 6.7%
Cascade 8.3% VS 5.5%
Nelson  Sauvin 12.6% VS 11.9%
Pacifica ? VS 4.7%

So a bit either way but a good wack  more on the biggest boil.

Out of interest as the style guide is 40 - 70 IBU, can I simply bump the OG up with a little more LDME or Sugar, not sure I want to go down to 42, my last NEPIA came out terribly sweet from this Calc & that was supposed to be 40.3IBU.

Don't recall the last brew having any sweetness issues but it was a touch to dark for what I had aimed at.

If I drop the higher Alpah Fuggles from 40 to 30g & chuck in 100g sugar Im getting 43 GU VS 47.5 BU

Edited by Mikes15

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when i brew ipas i like the og to match the ibu - for some reason - and it works well for my taste. up the og.

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1 hour ago, Mikes15 said:

Out of interest as the style guide is 40 - 70 IBU, can I simply bump the OG up with a little more LDME or Sugar, not sure I want to go down to 42, my last NEPIA came out terribly sweet from this Calc & that was supposed to be 40.3IBU.

As Ben said, whatever OG you decide on, match your IBU somewhere close.

1 hour ago, Mikes15 said:

...Don't recall the last brew having any sweetness issues but it was a touch to dark for what I had aimed at.

Your first brewing of this had carafa in it that is a dark roasted malt, hence why it was darker than you aimed for. This brewing you've removed it & upped the Redback malt so the malt balance & colour has changed.

1 hour ago, Mikes15 said:

...If I drop the higher Alpah Fuggles from 40 to 30g & chuck in 100g sugar Im getting 43 GU VS 47.5 BU

I'd be more inclined to lower the hops @ 30mins &/or 15mins. IPA's derive their bitterness 'bite' from long boiled hops so I'd be less inclined to alter the Fuggles amount too much if at all. You could also just shift both of those additions closer to the end of the boil. ?

24 minutes ago, Ben 10 said:

when i brew ipas i like the og to match the ibu - for some reason - and it works well for my taste. up the og.

Mike is trying to replicate a 4.8% ABV commercial beer. Although certainly an option, upping the OG will push it into a higher ABV range.

Cheers,

Lusty.

Edited by Beerlust
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Thanks so much all for the tips,

Looks like that was the issue with my NEPIA, OG = 1054, IBU = 40.29,,,,
 

To make it that little more confusing, LHBS is out of Fuggles until next harvest,,, suggesting Golding's or East Kent goldings are the closest ;-

Fuggles;-
General Trade Perception: A traditional English-type variety.
Characteristics: Mild wood and fruit characteristics

Alpha Acid Range: 4.0 - 5.5%
Beta Acid Range: 1.5 - 2.0%

Co-Humulone: 25 - 32%
Total Oil: 0.7 - 1.2 mL / 100g
Myrcene: 40 - 50% of total oil
Humulene: 20 - 26% of total oil
Caryophyllene: 6 - 10% of total oil
Farnesene: 4 - 5% of total oil

Goldings;-
General Trade Perception: Popular among ale breweries in the United States.
Characteristics: Mild and delicate with sweet floral characteristics

Alpha Acid Range: 4.0 - 6.0%
Beta Acid Range: 2.0 - 3.0%

Co-Humulone: 20 - 25%
Total Oil: 0.4 - 1.0 mL / 100g
Myrcene: 25 - 35% of total oil
Humulene: 35 - 45% of total oil
Caryophyllene: 13 - 16% of total oil
Farnesene: < 1% of total oil

East Kent Goldings;-
Alpha Acid Range: 4.0 - 7.0%
Beta Acid Range: 1.9 - 3.0%

Co-Humulone: 25 - 30%
Total Oil: 0.4 - 0.8 mL / 100g
Myrcene: ~25% of total oil
Humulene: ~36% of total oil
Caryophyllene: ~14.8% of total oil
Farnesene: < 1% of total oil

Or,,,

"If I want bolder, more rounded bitterness"

Pacific Gem;-
General Trade Perception: Unlike other high alpha hops, Pacific Gem does not carry a punchy aroma.
Characteristics: No distinct characteristics. Some brewers have noted delicate blackberry and floral or oak tones.

Alpha Acid Range: 13.5 - 16.0%
Beta Acid Range: 7.0 - 9.0%

Co-Humulone: 37 - 40%
Total Oil: ~1.2 mL / 100g
Myrcene: ~33.3% of total oil
Humulene: ~29.9% of total oil
Caryophyllene: ~11% of total oil
Farnesene: ~0.3% of total oil

Nugget;-
General Trade Perception: Gaining acceptance as a dual purpose variety
Aroma: Mild and pleasant with spicy, herbal tones

Alpha Acids: 12-14.5%
Beta Acids: 4.9%

Co-Humulone: 22-26%
Total Oil: 1.8-2.2 mL/100g
Myrcene: 48-55% of total oil
Humulene: 16-19% of total oil
Caryophyllene: 7-9% of total oil
Farnesene: <1% of total oil

& "If I want a sharper bitterness";-

Pacific Jade;-
General Trade Perception: Delivers soft bitterness with desirable aroma; well suited for "up-front" additions in dryer lager styles.
Characteristics: Bold herbal aromas with hints of fresh citrus and crushed black pepper.

Alpha Acid Range: 12.0 - 14.0%
Beta Acid Range: 7.0 - 8.0%

Co-Humulone: ~24%
Total Oil: ~1.4 mL / 100g
Myrcene: ~33.3% of total oil
Humulene: ~32.9% of total oil
Caryophyllene: ~10.2% of total oil
Farnesene: < 1% of total oil

Any one care to comment,,,,,,

Edited by Mikes15

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I’ve tried Pacific Gem as a bittering hop and I found the wood/oak come through a fair bit, which wasn’t particularly nice, IMO. 

Pacific jade is a really nice bittering hop, I found the herbal qualities quite nice and I did find that the bitterness was sharper than I expected

Depending what your after, consider pacifica. I find the herbal qualities of that to be quite nice. Plus it has a really soft kind of bitterness. That should be easy enough for you to get too. 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I’ve tried Pacific Gem as a bittering hop and I found the wood/oak come through a fair bit, which wasn’t particularly nice, IMO. 

Pacific jade is a really nice bittering hop, I found the herbal qualities quite nice and I did find that the bitterness was sharper than I expected

Depending what your after, consider pacifica. I find the herbal qualities of that to be quite nice. Plus it has a really soft kind of bitterness. That should be easy enough for you to get too. 

 

Thanks for the reply, I was actually just playing around with the Calc to see what IBU's those hops give, I assume if I go for say Pacific jade (11% vs 4.7% Fuggles) I would simple back off the amount until the IBUs are close to the fuggles?

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Right so to get OG of 1043 & IBU of 44.78 this would be my hop bill;-

20 g Pacific Jade20 g Pacific Jade Hops   AA12% Boil 60 min IBU= 29.75
10 g  Cascade Hops   AA5.5% Boil 30 min IBU= 5.24
10 g  Nelson Sauvin Hops   AA11.9% Boil 15 min IBU= 7.32
10 g  Cascade Hops   AA5.5% Boil 10 minIBU= 2.47
25 g Pacifica Hops   AA4.7% 75'c Hop tea 20 min  
25 g Nelson Sauvin Hops   AA11.9% 75'c Hop tea 20 min  
25 g Pacifica Hops   AA4.7% Dry Hop 4 days  
10 g Nelson Sauvin Hops   AA11.9% Dry Hop 4 days  
10 g Cascade Hops   AA5.5% Dry Hop 4 days
Edited by Mikes15

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20 hours ago, Mikes15 said:

To make it that little more confusing, LHBS is out of Fuggles until next harvest,,, suggesting Golding's or East Kent goldings are the closest ;-

...Any one care to comment,,,,,,

Styrian Golding is the closest I've come across to Fuggles. They are related & it is thought Styrian Golding is simply Slovenian Fuggles that were introduced there circa 1900.

It's what I'd use in place of the Fuggles.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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they don't have those,

Will have a shop around & see if I can find Fuggles in stock anywhere.

 

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2 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Styrian Golding is the closest I've come across to Fuggles. They are related & it is thought Styrian Golding is simply Slovenian Fuggles that were introduced there circa 1900.

It's what I'd use in place of the Fuggles.

Cheers,

Lusty.

100g of styrian on ordernull

Went to juggled my recipe a bit, my Calc must generate IBU's different from yours,

My Calc says the last brew would have had;-
24 IBU from the Fuggles,
12.7 IBU from the cascade,
9.1 IBU from thr Nelson
6 IBU from the Cascade
= 51.8,

You stated IBU = 46.6 for the same amounts, times & AA%?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mikes15 said:

Went to juggled my recipe a bit, my Calc must generate IBU's different from yours,

My Calc says the last brew would have had;-
24 IBU from the Fuggles,
12.7 IBU from the cascade,
9.1 IBU from thr Nelson
6 IBU from the Cascade
= 51.8,

You stated IBU = 46.6 for the same amounts, times & AA%?

Knowing myself pretty well, I likely questioned the %AA of the hops you were using against the inbuilt figures your calc uses, & suggested you check this & adjust accordingly.

Your numbers through the hop schedule for a 1.043 OG beer look decent given what you are after, but you never really know until you brew it, & then taste it at the glass. There is always a bit of a learning curve when attempting to replicate commercial beers from scratch when you have little to go on. If you really enjoy the beer, simply continue to re-brew the beer & make adjustments where YOU deem necessary. ?

Best of luck with the brew & let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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7 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Knowing myself pretty well, I likely questioned the %AA of the hops you were using against the inbuilt figures your calc uses, & suggested you check this & adjust accordingly.

 

Not sure I follow, or that I asked the question correctly,

Simply, I put the AA% figures from your recipe & boil times on the previous post into the brewers friend calc Im using but the total IBUS came out at 51.8 not the 46.6 you had listed,

My question was, do IBU calculations vary between different calculators, surely they should be the same?

40 g Fuggles40 g Fuggles Hops AA% 4.5 Boil 60 min = 23.91
15 g Cascade15 g Cascade Hops AA% 8.3 Boil 30 min = 12.71
15 g Nelson Sauvin15 g Nelson Sauvin Hops AA% 12.6 Boil 10 min = 9.1
15 g Cascade15 g Cascade Hops AA% 8.3 Boil 10 min = 6          Total IBUS = 51.8 not the 46.6 you had listed for the same?

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14 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

There is always a bit of a learning curve when attempting to replicate commercial beers from scratch when you have little to go on. If you really enjoy the beer, simply continue to re-brew the beer & make adjustments where YOU deem necessary. ?

The 1st brew came out nice, but I did want to modify it slightly, ironically I'm not that worried about whether it matches the commercial or not now as I know its a nice beer,

What I'm trying to do right now is learn & understand how to build a recipe & tweak it brew on brew, the help on which I truly grateful, e.g. clearly the failure of my NEPIA was my previous lack of understanding around OG vs. IBU,

in posts here I've now learnt not to mess with the base boiler hop (Fuggles) to adjust IBU,

but there's my issue,

I don't know what amount of Styrian Golding to use in place of the Fuggles as my IBU's don't match what your recipe had like for like, so I cant say 40g Fuggles @ 60min = 32IBU therefore I need Xg Styrian Golding @ Ymins to get 32IBU.

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Sorry Mike, now I understand what you are saying.

Most of the calcs these days are pretty good across the board. In this case I'd suggest your calc maybe adjusting IBU due to "boil volume". Tinseth calculated IBU does not take into consideration boil volume, whereas Garetz theory does. Maybe the calc you're using adjusts IBU due to this?

I've learned to trust Tinseth calculated IBU provided I don't overcrowd my small volume boils with too much weight of hops against commercial brews of approx. the same listed IBU. Trust what your calc presents at the glass for what you feel is inline with similar commercial beers you have sampled.

Cheers,

Lusty.

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42 minutes ago, Beerlust said:

Most of the calcs these days are pretty good across the board. In this case I'd suggest your calc maybe adjusting IBU due to "boil volume". Tinseth calculated IBU does not take into consideration boil volume, whereas Garetz theory does. Maybe the calc you're using adjusts IBU due to this?

The brewers Friend Calc has Tinseth & Ranger IBU, it display's Tinseth, but,,, it does adjust both for boil volume,

With a 5ltr boiler your Hop AA%'s & the original grams & boil times its giving 46.57 IBU Ranger so spot on, but 51.2 for Tinseth!

Playing around with the 5ltr boil, making it 3.8ltr gives 46.2 in both so guess I can start adjusting the amount of Styrian Golding to match the Fuggles, then the others to get the OG vs IBU equal.

Cheers for the help.

Edited by Mikes15

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After a VERY long brewing hiatus its time to get back on the horse so steeping the grain for this tonight, planing to brew tomorrow eve,

Method: Extract
Style: Specialty IPA: Red IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 21 liters
Boil Size: 5 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.039 (recipe based estimate)
 

Steeping Grains, 24hrs chilled in 3ltrs water, 300g New Zealand - Red Back Malt 35.4 32.9949 7.5%

Hop boil,

3ltr of steep water + 2ltrs of fresh, 500 g LDME

Amount / Variety / Type / AA / Use Time / IBU
75 g Styrian Goldings Pellet 2.6% Boil 60 min 25.9
20 g Cascade Pellet 6.8% Boil 30 min 13.88
20 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet 10.8% Boil 15 min 14.24
10 g Cascade Pellet 6.8% Boil 10 min 3.27
25 g Pacifica Pellet 4.8% Boil 0 min
25 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet 10.8% Boil 0 min

Fermentables
1.7 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) 35 4 42.7%
1.4 kg Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) 42 4 35.2%
80 g Sugar - (late addition) 46 0.5 2%

Dry hop,
25 g Pacifica Pellet 4.7% Dry Hop 4 days
10 g Nelson Sauvin Pellet 10.8% Dry Hop 4 days
10 g Cascade Pellet 6.8% Dry Hop 4 days

Yeast, Fermentis / Safale - Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

Attenuation (avg): 81%

Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 12.2 - 25 °C Starter: No
Fermentation Temp: 20 °C

 

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Posted (edited)

And so it is done,,,,,

54420936_10155927006835896_6521766306918

OG came in a bit low at 1054 instead of the 1058 planned but ho hum,,

Think I remembered,, all the important bits at least!!!

Loving that the entire house now smells of hops 😍

Edited by Mikes15
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Welcome back Mike!

Your hop schedule is interesting, so please let us know how it turns out.

Best of luck with the brew.

Lusty.

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Down to 1044, temp up to 21'C (started at 18'C).

Tastes like sweet pineapple juice, hopefully the sweetness goes & the pineapple stays & not the other way around 😁

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