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No krausen - Thomas Coopers Pilsner


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Long time reader, first time poster here. I've had a search of the forum and haven't really had a clear answer as to what exactly is going on with my brew or what may be causing the issue of no krausen.

Currently brewing the Thomas Coopers 86 Days Pilsner (4th brew attempt in my relatively short brewing endeavour) and after 5 days I've still had no signs of krausen, no ring around the top of the fermenter, nothing. The airlock was bubbling away the first few days, together with small bubbles rising to the top of the brew (currently clear, no visible sign of infection). I've checked it today and there's been no airlock activity however it's still bubbling away inside, but still no krausen whatsoever.

I used the standard can/1kg malt with the can yeast rehydrated prior to pitching. Pitched at around 22°c. OG of 1.043 and after checking again today (5 days in) the gravity reading shows 1.021 so theres definitely activity happening in there. I tasted the sample, best way I can describe it is that it tastes like warm, fizzy beer, smelt ok however there's a sulphur-type smell coming from the fermenter. The brew has been sitting at around 18-20 degrees (according to the themometer on the side of the fermenter) which I now understand is probably too warm for this type of brew, however I haven't got the space/time/money to invest in temp control at this stage. I'm guessing the smell is part of fermentation, however will this then transfer into the actual beer once it's time to bottle? Will cold-crashing prior to bottling help at all (can try to organise fridge space if needed)?

Cheers

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Coincidence. I'm on my 4th brew and doing the same pilsner and kg of malt, same temps. I got krausen after 24 hours and have had for 2 days. Dropping now.

It might be you used the lager yeast that came with the pils, and it doesn't like the higher temp. I can't ferment at lager yeast temps either, that's why I used ale yeast.  I used Nottingham for mine.

Perhaps rehydrating the yeast was an issue too? I've not done this with packet yeast.

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I wouldnt worry too much about lack of krausen, I just think you have a slow ferment. I would have expected a few points lower at day 5. When you rehydrated what temperature was the water and again what was the wort temperature when you pitched?

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32 minutes ago, Titan said:

I wouldnt worry too much about lack of krausen, I just think you have a slow ferment. I would have expected a few points lower at day 5. When you rehydrated what temperature was the water and again what was the wort temperature when you pitched?

Forgot to write it down, but pretty sure I had the water temperature at around 25°c (watched a few videos suggesting 30°c-35°c which seemed WAY too high). The yeast was in the fridge at first but I let it rest outside of the fridge to get down to room temperature prior to rehydrating. When I rehydrated I let it sit in a small amount of water (around 150-200ml) for 15 minutes then mixed into a slurry/paste (may have had a bit too much water?) and let it sit again for around 5-10 minutes, then pitched at 22°c.

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30-35 is fine for re-hydrating but it should be cooled to within about 5 degrees of the wort temp before pitching it. Obviously not an issue in this case as it was already in that range. It's probably just one of those funny things that happens sometimes. The SG is dropping which means fermentation is occurring.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the replies all. It's been sitting for 2 weeks and I've taken another hydrometer reading and have an FG of 1.004 which I've never seen or heard of before (in terms of such a low number, I'm used to seeing around 1.010) regarding the Coopers kits. I'm going to take another reading tomorrow just to be sure that there's nothing sinister hiding away that's still eating at it, or is this a fairly normal FG for a typical kit/kilo operation?

Side note - so far this has to be the best smelling/tasting sample I've tasted since I got into all this, although there's something underlying taste wise that I can't put my finger on. Still shaping up to be one of my better attempts however.

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The Pilsner has a Lager yeast and probably should be fermented at a lower temperature than you did.

Having said that, the kit yeast volume alone may not support a low temp start.

The sulphur smell is normal for that yeast fermented at higher temp. It will gradually subside and any leftover odour/taste will disappear from the bottles also given time - 4 weeks at least.

Cheers

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On 10/13/2018 at 10:51 AM, Otto Von Blotto said:

It does sound low for a kit and kilo of malt. What does the hydrometer read in 20 degree water? And what temp is the sample itself?

Reads bang on 1.000 in 20 degree water. The sample temperatures are around 18-20 going off the stick on thermometer. Haven't actually thought of taking a temperature test when checking the FG...

I did another reading (prior to reading this thread otherwise I would have checked the temp!) and it's sitting stable at 1.004. I'm still a bit worried though that there's something underlying that's still fermenting. Is it worth filling 2 bottles and putting them aside for a few days to see how they track along?

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13 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

The temp of the samples probably isn't far enough away from 20 degrees to affect the readings much if at all so the 1.004 is accurate. I know Lager yeast ferment more thoroughly than ale yeast but it still sounds low for the ingredients used. Does it taste fine?

 

13 hours ago, Lab Rat said:

I think your issues could be related to fermenting the lager yeast in the pilsner kit, at ale yeast temperatures.

As Otto says - if it tastes like beer, I say get in the bottles.

It honestly tastes/smells like my best attempt so far, despite everything. There is something going on flavour wise that tastes like it shouldn't be there which may be a by-product of fermenting the lager yeast at ale temps, but it's still drinkable. Hoping it's something that will go away as it matures in the bottles for a while.

Just to be completely safe I may just give it another day or two (not by choice either, I just don't have time to bottle, haha) and give it one last reading just to be extra careful.

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Nothing wrong with giving it a bit of extra time in there but that flavor you mention most likely is a result of the high ferment temp and/or the small yeast pitch. 7g of dry yeast really isn't enough for a lager brew. It works most of the time for ales but lagers are generally pitched with double or more the rate of ales. My best lagers were/are the ones pitched with a crapload of yeast at or below fermentation temp, which is usually 10 degrees for me, but sometimes I'll use 12 degrees.

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8 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

The temp of the samples probably isn't far enough away from 20 degrees to affect the readings much if at all so the 1.004 is accurate. I know Lager yeast ferment more thoroughly than ale yeast but it still sounds low for the ingredients used. Does it taste fine?

Slightly off the subject and I know we are not talking AG brews here but I have found it interesting moving to AG and then working my way down to Mid Strength ABV's, I am getting 1.004 and 1.005 FG's for 3.7% bottled beers. (OG's 1.032-1.035)

Now if you get that number doing 'all extract' you are going to find head retention an issue, and if you are drinking from a glass outside, non-existent. Then your carbonation fails because there is no creamy head to restrict carbonation degradation. 

My last standard 86day Pilsner FG'd at 1.011. Then I did one with additional 200g dextrose and 200g Caramalt which came in at 1.010 fermented with 300ml of W34/70 Lager yeast slurry, so a similar outcome. Difference being the 2nd one had better head retention, because of the Caramalt and hop addition.

I'm now getting that 1.004 FG down from 1.035 using US-05 generational slurries in my 3.7% ABV mid strength AG brews, which I haven't poured yet but I almost guarantee retention and longevity of head and carbonation. So 1.004 may not be all bad if the recipe holds up. ?

Cheers

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You can influence it in AG a lot more too. If you mash those brews higher, your FG won't be that low. This allows using more malt, to an OG of say the low 1.040s, but with an FG around 1.011-13 you'll still get a midstrength but with more body and mouthfeel. 

Of course it depends on the style too, some of them work well with a low FG.

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:54 PM, nothing said:

I'm still a bit worried though that there's something underlying that's still fermenting.

What is making you think this?

One thing worth trying is drawing a small sample off & chilling it to 3-4'C then tasting it, almost all beers & especially largers taste shite at 20'C null

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13 hours ago, Mikes15 said:

What is making you think this?

One thing worth trying is drawing a small sample off & chilling it to 3-4'C then tasting it, almost all beers & especially largers taste shite at 20'C null

I can't help but think with every one of my attempts that there's the risk of a wild infection of some sort hiding somewhere in there...so far I've been wrong 100% of the time which is good, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

Regarding the chilling of the sample - I might give that a try and see how it goes. Pretty sure the off taste is as OVB said regarding the high fermentation/not enough yeast, etc.

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Just now, nothing said:

I can't help but think with every one of my attempts that there's the risk of a wild infection of some sort hiding somewhere in there...so far I've been wrong 100% of the time which is good, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

Regarding the chilling of the sample - I might give that a try and see how it goes. Pretty sure the off taste is as OVB said regarding the high fermentation/not enough yeast, etc.

I just think this brew has been slightly underpitched with yeast. This is a lager yeast and I would not worry too much about 1.021 at day 5. If the pitch was slightly under you can expect a slower start and a lower krausen. I have had some lager batches with very little krausen, just a couple of millimeters of bubbly, sometimes patchy stuff on top.

Also a sample tasted on day 5 will be fairly crap.

I usually don't check FG for lagers until day 10 or 11, hopefully for final FG confirmation on day 13 or 14.

We have discussed the sulphur odour issue above, which is pretty normal I would be extremely surprised if you had an infection or wild yeast. Its pretty hard to get an infection if a basic sanitisation regime is used and the brew is not open, meaning not necessarily sealed, but not wide open to the air.

I think you will find at 14 days, all is good and you can then think about bottling or better, cold crashing for 1 or 2 weeks.

Cheers

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2 hours ago, nothing said:

I can't help but think with every one of my attempts that there's the risk of a wild infection of some sort hiding somewhere in there...so far I've been wrong 100% of the time

I cont help but think that one day I'll get hit by a bus, or train, or car, or my boat will sink, or I'll slip down the stairs,,, 100% hasn't happened yet but I do enjoy spending my life being paranoid,,,,, ? - oh wait I did fall down the stairs & fracture my ankle once,,,,, still use stairs mind,,,,

Only jesting (well not really), the one & only thing I can think of to be careful with other than basic cleaning etc is when you hydrate your yeast for 15mins + post stir cover it with either tin foil or glad wrap to prevent wild yeast getting in, even off your skin / hair etc.

 

Out of interest, why are we talking about the yeast being under pitched when the brew has reached 1004, is it simply as it was a slower process?

PS- Welcome to the Forum fella, as a previous beginner I'd say you'll find no better place to get help & advise to help you along your home brewing journey.

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My yeast starters must be really paranoid, they're always wearing tin foil hats.

Underpitching doesn't automatically mean that the brew won't fully ferment out, it doesn't automatically mean any problems happen actually, but the risk of problems is increased by underpitching. The most common is probably off flavors but it can also increase the risk of infection due to a longer lag time and overall sluggish fermentation, and in more extreme cases the yeast just gives up altogether and the fermentation stalls before it's finished.

You can get away with pitching a bit less into lagers if they're pitched warm, as part of the reason for the double or more pitching rates compared to ales is the low pitching and fermentation temperature normally used with them. The other reason for higher pitching rates though is the overall flavor, pitching more yeast means less reproduction and as such, less yeast derived flavors.

I've done a couple of different methods with lagers, with varying results. The best ones have been the ones pitched with a lot of yeast at or just below the ferment temperature, which is usually 10 or 12 degrees, followed by a slowish ramp down to lagering temp post fermentation. Ones pitched with a lot of yeast at a warmer temperature and simply crashed straight to lagering temps post fermentation also turned out nice but not quite as nice. The worst of them was a kit and kilo of malt dry pitched with the kit yeast. I did this in winter so the ferment temp wasn't ridiculously high but the amount of yeast was lacking no doubt. It was drinkable, but nothing like the ones I've brewed since learning more about brewing lagers and pitching rates. The ones I'm making now I prefer over pretty well all commercial lagers.

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15 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

My yeast starters must be really paranoid, they're always wearing tin foil hats.

Is there a reason for using foil, it rings a bell from when I learn't about hydrating but I'm using glad wrap of late so I can watch it!

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