Pale + Wheat + Amarillo + Simcoe

[Popo the Reprobate]

G'day All,

I have made about half a dozen AG batches so far but they have all been copied recipes or a kit from the LHBS. I'm trying to put together something of my own for my next brew based on flavours and combos I have enjoyed in past brews. BUT, as it's my first crack at my own recipe I thought I'd post it up for some feedback. I'm looking for something reasonably hoppy and easy drinking. 

I'm thinking a 60/40 pale/wheat split in the malt bill based on a fresh wort kit I brewed (All-In Citra Pale) and Pacific Ale clones.

I really liked the Amarillo & Simcoe mix in a beer I made previously (Dogfish Head 60 Minute). It was an IPA so I'm trying to tone down the bitterness a bit for this one. It'll be no chilled. Yeast will be US05 at this stage. 23L.

3.00kg Pale Malt

2.00 Wheat Malt (Any dramas using this much?)

10g Simcoe @ 60 (13.6 IBU)

10g Amarillo @ 5 (1.9 IBU)

10g Simcoe @ 5 (2.7 IBU)

20g Amarillo @ Flameout - or a bit later for a steep before cubing?

20g Simcoe @ Flameout - as above?

Dy hop of maybe 20g or 30g each probably favouring a bit more Amarillo? I've got 100g of each so can go a bit harder with the dry hop - or elsewhere.

According to Beersmith this comes in at:

OG 1.049

32ish IBUs

ABV 5.2%

Whaddya think? Am I on the right track? I'd be really grateful for any feedback or suggestions.

 

Cheers,

Josh

[Otto Von Blotto]

Flameout additions are fine, you could try a cube hop as well, just put the hops into the cube before you transfer the wort into it. Maybe 10-15g of each. Probably best to pour through a strainer or something when you get to transferring to the fermenter though. Then use the rest as a dry hop.

No idea about the wheat amount, I don't even use it in my brewing. 

[Hairy]

If you like a wheaty beer then the wheat percentage is fine. Most wheat beers are around the 50/50 mark so this will be fairly similar.

I like it.

[Popo the Reprobate]

Thanks Otto and Hairy. Much appreciated .

I'll have a look at adding the cube hops. Or I might brew it without and then try it with them next time. Hmmm. Would that go in as a steep in Beersmith?

I don't mind a wheat. As above, I might try it at 40% this time and adjust if needed next time.

Thanks again gents.

 

[joolbag]

Hey Popo I'm drinking a Simcarillo American wheat ale right now! It's all late Hopped and really delicious. Amped up stone n wood pacific ale with Simcoe and Amarillo instead of Galaxy.

 

I cube Hopped. Generously too. I flooded my cube in a bath office water to chill it down sub 80C quickly.

 

Amount	Name	Type	#
6.00 g	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60 min)	Misc	1
0.50	Campden Tablet (Potassium Metabisulfate) (Mash 0 min)	Misc	2
2.97 kg	Gladfield American Ale Malt (5.0 EBC)	Grain	3
1.65 kg	BEST Wheat Malt (BESTMALZ) (4.8 EBC)	Grain	4
440.0 g	Uncle Toby's Rolled Oats (2.8 EBC)	Grain	5
0.50	Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10 min)	Misc	6
28.0 g	Simcoe [12.3%] - Boil 10 min	Hops	7
24.2 g	Amarillo [9.4%] - Boil 5 min	Hops	8
55.0 g	Amarillo [8.2%] - Steep 0 min	Hops	9
55.0 g	Simcoe [12.3%] - Steep 0 min	Hops	10
28.0 g	Simcoe [12.3%] - Steep 15 min	Hops	11
27.5 g	Amarillo [8.2%] - Dry Hop 0 days	Hops	12

 

The 55g of Amarillo and 55g Simcoe was cube Hopped. Really hard to edit from an iPad

[Popo the Reprobate]

Ah beauty! Thanks Joolbag. That's pretty handy. I am encouraged.

Glad it turned out well for you. It sounds pretty good.

Brew day is not until next week. I might have another muck around putting it together and see what I come up with.

 

That office water really cools things down quickly haha. I have been doing that with my cubes too. Filling a big bucket/basket thing with water and switching it out a few times to try and get the temp down.

[Wobbly74]

I model cube hops as 5 minute steep hops for ibu calculation based on dropping the wort into the cube at 80C, which I get from a 30 minute open steep and whirlpool. I'm with Jools - I'd up the late hop additions quite a bit. Personally I've been doing no boil hops for hoppy beers and everything in the steep and cube for no chill. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

Thanks Wobbly. I've kinda winged it with the late hops. It's handy to know that you use a 5 minute steep as a guide.

So you'd put all your hops in at flameout and cube hop to hit the same IBUs?

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I use a 5 minute steep for cube hops as well even though the wort usually goes in around 90 degrees. The calculated IBU figure may not accurately reflect what's in the beer but they turn out how I want them too so it works for me.

My pale ales do have most of their hops added late/flameout/cube but I always include a long boiled addition as I do enjoy a bit of 'proper' bitterness in them that you don't get from late or steeped hops. Generally I construct the hopping schedule by putting in the late hops first then topping up the IBUs to around 34-35 with the long boiled addition. 

It took a bit of time to arrive at this schedule, just have a play around with it over a few batches, you'll work out what works best for your tastes.

Cheers

Kelsey

[Wobbly74]

I modelled then at 5 minutes @ 80C into the cube after doing a high hopped galaxy summer ale that I wanted about 18-20 ibu. I found 90C had it closer to 30 by taste and about right at 80C. This was just a single addition of 100g directly in the cube. 

But it's important to work it out to your system and tastes - and even ambient temp - as all of these will affect the rate of cooling both in the kettle and the cube. 

I do recipe construction same as Kelsey - work out your late hop additions first then to up with bittering addition at fwh as necessary (which varies based on the amount you want / have and aa% of what you're using).

[Otto Von Blotto]

There's a difference - I'm usually only additing about 20-25g to the cube rather than 100g, naturally this would result in less bitterness being extracted from those hops. The wort also loses a few degrees during the transfer to the cube. I measured it once, I think in the warmer weather. It was 92 in the urn after a 20 minute rest, then dropped to about 87-88 by the time the cube was filled.

[Wobbly74]

Depends on the recipe of course - the 100g was for something I wanted low ibu and with a strong flavour and aroma component. My lagers don't get any, and my last pale had a bit less in the cube (40 each of Amarillo and citra) with more dropped in the steep progressively for the first 15 minutes and topped up with a 5g bittering addition in fwh. My last golden ale I've just kegged was in the middle, 50 in the cube, 50 in the steep and 30 fwh (summer & riwaka combo). Same process for constructing the recipes though.  

I find recipe construction enough to get you in the ballpark but then it's a matter of adjusting based on taste due to all the variables in late hopping with no chill. I just find with no chill I need to stack a lot on the back end of the temperature gradient to get the desired result in the glass for hoppy beers, at least to my tastes. So then of course you need to substitute a bit of trial and error to get the last mile. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yep it's all trial and error to get the results you want. I only recently started cube hopping pale ales, and I also dropped the IBU by about 5. These things have made the beers nicer. I'll probably keep tinkering with different late hopping schedules. Different amounts in the kettle and cube or something and see what happens. I don't cube hop any other styles I brew though as they don't really need it.

[Beerlust]

I'm not up with all the no-chill timeframes & methods, but like your hop choices & general mix.

Looks good. 

Best of luck with the brew.

Lusty.

[Hairy]

6 hours ago, Beerlust said:

I'm not up with all the no-chill timeframes & methods, but like your hop choices & general mix.

Don’t worry, I no-chill my beers and I have no idea what they are talking either.

[Beerlust]

18 hours ago, Hairy said:

Don’t worry, I no-chill my beers and I have no idea what they are talking either.

Given you're planning on making that all Magnum beer, you won't have to worry about a lot of things.

Things like flavour etc. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Popo the Reprobate]

Thanks for the information Otto and Wobbly. I've got a vague understanding of cube hopping from reading about it but not enough knowledge to really put it in to practice with any confidence. Brew day has been pushed back a little but hoping to get this brewed in the next day or two after I have a bit of a play with the recipe based on the above.

Is there any problem hop wise doing a reasonable cube hop if I can't get it into the fermenter for a week or two? Grassiness or vegetal flavours?

Thanks Beerlust. I am looking forward to brewing and tasting.

 

Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

I left one for two or three weeks with cube hops in it before fermenting it, kegging it tomorrow. Couldn't detect any problems in the FG samples. Maybe it depends on the hop variety like with dry hopping.

[Popo the Reprobate]

Cheers Otto. I reckon mine will be in the cube for about that length of time. We'll see how we go.

 

I got it brewed this morning. All cubed and cleaned up now. Cleaning is certainly not my favourite part of the process haha.

I ended up with:

3kg Pale + 2kg Wheat

I kept the 60 min addition of 10g Simcoe. 

Whirlpooled 20 each of Amarillo and Simcoe in the mid 90C.

Once it dropped to just above 80C, I cubed it with 40g Amarillo and 30g Simcoe. 

Beersmith predicts 35.5 IBU based on that addition being the same as a 5 min steep. 5.2% ABV.

I'll dry hop with the rest. I also found a some bonus Cascade in the freezer which I'll probably chuck in too.

 

I'll see how we go in a month or two. Thanks for your help everyone.

Cheers!

[Popo the Reprobate]

So. This has turned out pretty disappointingly. Very early days - no real carbonation (gunna have to warm things up) but very underwhelming.

The smell from the fermenter as well as the samples I tasted were flavourful and promising. They're not really there at all in the bottle. Bummer. 

I'll give it some time and cross my fingers.

[Popo the Reprobate]

Another few tasting has revealed just an OK beer. It's not as bad as I first thought but it's nowhere near what I had tried to create. 

There's a hop flavour presence there but it's not as prominent or distinguishable as I'd hoped. I think I'll significantly up the cube hop in the next one. 

The bitterness seems just about what I was after.

I'm not sure about the wheat. I might dial it back a touch and see how it is for comparison.

It's definitely not a pretty beer - I expected cloudiness from the wheat. Muddy almost. One thing I didn't mention previously is that I forgot the Whirlfloc. Would an absence of Whirlfloc that have any effect on taste? It did get a decent whirlpool and I tried not to get any junk in the cube.

I also used M44 as I had it in the fridge. I usually use US05 so I'm not sure what effect that had in terms of what I was expecting.

[The Captain!!]

In my experience first time recipes are just that, you’ll need to work on it. 

If you know your system and how it behaves you should be able to see where the issues are. 

Firstly you mentioned hop flavour. I’d push this some more. 

Dialing back the wheat? Personally I would but that’s all to taste. 

Ph could have been a factor into how hops prominate in the glass. As well as water chemistry.  But don’t worry too much about that now. 

I put together your recipe in BeerSmith for my system. This gives you a real punch in the mouth hop flavour. 

FWA: to roughly half the ibus desired.

10 minute addition

steep for 10-15

then a cube hop of 40 odd grams

I then push a 100g dry hop. 

Also im not saying this is how you should do it, I’m just saying this works for me. 

[Popo the Reprobate]

Hey Captain - big thanks for going to the trouble of punching that in.  Your input is greatly accepted. I'm just comparing both of the recipes now. I have somehow managed to lose/delete the majority of my Beer Smith recipes. I'm glad I put in a rough description above.

I had assumed I'd need to tinker, just thought I'd be a bit closer with the first attempt. Hop amounts are about the same but are different amounts at different places - FWH as opposed to 60 mins, 10 min opposed to Whirlpool, further steep vs no steep and cube additions. I ended up with 95g dry hop. Hopefully I can get my head around additions and timing.  Not quite there. I understand the premise but obviously not putting it into practice properly just yet. 

I haven't delved into ph or water chemistry just yet. It is filtered tank water here.

I'll have another look and a read through the comments in this post and try to put something together to get closer to the mark.

 

[The Captain!!]

It’s all learning popo. One thing I love about this hobby is you’ll never stop learning. 

One of the biggest things ive learnt that works for me was the isomerisation of hops for bitterness and flavour and at what temps.

My system will vary just as yours will so for max flavour at boiling is around 20 mins or so they say. So that’s why I’ve derived what I do for maximum flavour, usually a 15 boil addition followed by a 15 minute steep followed by a steep around the 80 mark as it’s cooling. With the lid closed the extraction of oils and flavour gets captured and released into the beer. 

I also use a hop spider for boil additions and steep sock for steeping, so I’m  not adding further bittering which isn’t accounted for. But also understand that I won’t get as much isomerisation as predicted due to the hops not being in the rolling boil so to speak. The 60/FWA goes in commando but probably won’t extract anymore bitterness past that point anyway. 

Hope your next batch works out for ya and I’ll keep a look out for your next crack at it. 

Captain

[Otto Von Blotto]

I did a couple of pilsners where I forgot the kettle finings (I use Brewbrite) and they were not as good as with it. Very hazy but the flavor was all wrong too.