All Grain for Newbies

[Worthog]

Based on you people advising me how simple it is, here is what I plan to do;

Still a kit base, but to learn about the mash, and still hope for a drinkable beer;
•    1.7 Coopers APA
•    2.5kg Maris Otter
•    500g Munich
•    250g Carapils
•    150g Caramalt
•    Late hop; 40g Chinook 15m boil, 40g Cascade 15m coffee plunger
•    My Nott/US-05 slurry 300ml

All of the grains, 3.4kg, will be steeped for 60 mins in a BIAB and 11 litres water, at 65c.
Then the bag will be lifted, connected to my cord and patented pulley system ( ), to just above the wort to drain for 30m (and maybe squeezed). No sparge will be undertaken ( ).

The wort will be boiled for 10-15 mins to kill everything, then transferred to my sanitized and sealed carboy FV, maybe using chux+sieve. It will then be left to cool ambiently.

Separately, the next day, the hop boil will be undertaken in 1.5 litres of water with 150g DME added. This, and the Hop ‘tea’ will be added to the cooled wort through chux+sieve. The Coopers APA kit will then be added to FV and stirred in.

The wort will then be topped to 23 litres to achieve 18c, OG will be taken, then yeast slurry pitched.

All critical responses, and further suggestions welcome. 

Cheers
 

[The Captain!!]

2 hours ago, Hairy said:

Like this?

Yes Hairy, just like that.

I love a good steeple chase

[Otto Von Blotto]

Worthog, boil the grain wort for an hour, and chuck in 1/4 of a whirlfloc tablet with about 8-10 minutes to go. You need that time to get a good hot break to separate the unwanted haze forming crap (proteins etc.) from the wort, and the whirfloc helps drop them out when the boil is finished. You're doing a reasonable sized mash with the wort making up a large chunk of the batch compared to small spec. grain steeps. Your beer will be better and clearer for it. Add the 15 minute Chinook hops in the last part of that boil rather than faffing around doing another boil specially for them. Perhaps find a quicker way to chill that wort down as well, however if you boil it at night and mix up the rest with the hop tea and pitch yeast in the morning you should be fine, I wouldn't leave it any longer though. Otherwise the process sounds good.

[Beerlust]

2 hours ago, Worthog said:

...All of the grains, 3.4kg, will be steeped for 60 mins in a BIAB and 11 litres water, at 65c.

If you're able to mash that much grain, you're about one step away from being able to completely all-grain brew. 

Cheers,

Lusty.

[Gullys Brewing]

So going into all grain. Started the list of wants and must have. 

I want a grain mill so I can buy grain in bulk. Any suggestions on what brand to get. Or if eBay special will work obviously money is an issue so bang for buck is the best bet.

Cheers

Jason 

[Rowbrew]

Hey Gully,

I bought one of those cheap eBay specials and just replaced it with a keg king 3 roller. Much better mill IMHO. For an extra $70 or so for the 3 roller, i can highly recommend

[The Captain!!]

My LHBS will let customers bring their bulk grain in and mill it for free. I do that when I pick up my specialty malts for each brew. 

Mill do this till I find what main grains I use then buy the specialty stuff in bulk too. Then buy a good 3 roller mill

Captain

[Hairy]

29 minutes ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

My LHBS will let customers bring their bulk grain in and mill it for free. I do that when I pick up my specialty malts for each brew. 

That is pretty cool. Nice!

[Otto Von Blotto]

I bought a mashmaster minimill, originally they came with knurled rollers, which is the model I bought, but they're fluted now which are better. It is a bit more money but it'll probably outlive you and your kids, that's how well built they are. 

I've had mine nearly 6 years now and it's still as good as new. I ran into an issue about 3 years ago when the rollers stopped pulling grains through. It happened to a number of other guys too. Something was up with the knurl. Anyway Frank sent me a free replacement fluted roller which I fitted, so the mill is a hybrid of sorts. It fixed the problem though and has been great ever since. Would definitely recommend. 

[Beerlust]

6 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

My LHBS will let customers bring their bulk grain in and mill it for free. I do that when I pick up my specialty malts for each brew. 

Mill do this till I find what main grains I use then buy the specialty stuff in bulk too. Then buy a good 3 roller mill

Captain

Anyone who doesn't buy all their grain from their LHBS, but uses them for a service like this is a self-centred asshole if you ask me.

I buy all my grain from the same place that mills it for me. Respect, service & loyalty above cost,....always.

Lusty.

[Hairy]

3 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Anyone who doesn't buy all their grain from their LHBS, but uses them for a service like this is a self-centred asshole if you ask me.

I don’t know if are implying that the Captain does this but he didn’t say he doesn’t buy the grain from the LHBS, just that he bought in bulk and mills it there as needed.

[The Captain!!]

6 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Anyone who doesn't buy all their grain from their LHBS, but uses them for a service like this is a self-centred asshole if you ask me.

I buy all my grain from the same place that mills it for me. Respect, service & loyalty above cost,....always.

Lusty.

Yeah I buy everything from my LHBS including my bulk grain. Last time I wanted to get a some my LHBS was out of stock and so was their supplier and would not have any for a couple of more months. The LHBS owner put me onto a supplier in Perth that supplies to the public at the same price they get theirs at.

So I ordered two bags from my LHBS for a couple of months time and drove to Perth for the other two. 

I also asked about bringing that particular bulk grain that was purchased elsewhere to be milled and they were fine with it as I am a loyal customer and I get everything from there. 

Both the shop owner and myself were happy. So am I a self centred asshole........ not in my opinion. 

I will be purchasing a malt muncher at some stage, just have other purchases first before that one, as hey, I can still get it crushed right. 

I believe in shopping local. And I’m sure you’ve heard me say before that I grow my own veges, fruit and want to sell my produce locally one day. And I want to live as sustainable as I can. That ethos goes hand in hand with respect, service and loyalty above cost.

Lusty I’m glad that you show such passion behind shopping local and I think others should to. 

Captain

[porschemad911]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:41 AM, Worthog said:

Based on you people advising me how simple it is, here is what I plan to do;

Still a kit base, but to learn about the mash, and still hope for a drinkable beer;
•    1.7 Coopers APA
•    2.5kg Maris Otter
•    500g Munich
•    250g Carapils
•    150g Caramalt
•    Late hop; 40g Chinook 15m boil, 40g Cascade 15m coffee plunger
•    My Nott/US-05 slurry 300ml

All of the grains, 3.4kg, will be steeped for 60 mins in a BIAB and 11 litres water, at 65c.
Then the bag will be lifted, connected to my cord and patented pulley system ( ), to just above the wort to drain for 30m (and maybe squeezed). No sparge will be undertaken ( ).

The wort will be boiled for 10-15 mins to kill everything, then transferred to my sanitized and sealed carboy FV, maybe using chux+sieve. It will then be left to cool ambiently.

Separately, the next day, the hop boil will be undertaken in 1.5 litres of water with 150g DME added. This, and the Hop ‘tea’ will be added to the cooled wort through chux+sieve. The Coopers APA kit will then be added to FV and stirred in.

The wort will then be topped to 23 litres to achieve 18c, OG will be taken, then yeast slurry pitched.

All critical responses, and further suggestions welcome. 

Cheers
 

Hi Worthog,

I would just boil your 15 min Chinook hop addition with your mash runnings, then do the Cascade hop tea the next day. You'll get better hop utilization doing this.

If you do this, expect a 1.052 OG 48 IBU pre-fermentation once everything is diluted to 23 litres.

I've attached the calcs for the mash and boil portion (assuming a 0.6 l/kg grain absorption which is fairly typical for BIAB in my experience, 2.5 l/h boil-off, zero lautering loss and post-boil loss).

A quick summary - 8.3 litres end-of-boil volume, 1.084 SG, 63.4 IBU = 1.030 SG, 22.9 IBU diluted to 23 litres, then the APA kit adds 22 gravity points and 25.1 IBU when diluted to 23 litres.

Cheers,

John

brew_calc_biab.xlsx

[Beerlust]

4 hours ago, Hairy said:

I don’t know if are implying that the Captain does this but he didn’t say he doesn’t buy the grain from the LHBS, just that he bought in bulk and mills it there as needed.

I'm not implying anything. I think I made it very clear actually, & you should note I took aim at the topic, not the person who quoted it. 

With the boom of online shopping a lot of Aussie dollars are now going to online vendors & overseas interests, that is having a huge impact on local economies & businesses. It's a lot to do with greed on a number of levels that starts with us as customers.

As an example of this & the impact this sort of behaviour is having, in SA atm there is a radio ad campaign to force our state Premier to stop deregulation in the produce market (veggie growers etc.) sector as the big supermarket giants are now bringing in produce from other states at the expense of local growers & local produce because the local growers either can't match or won't bow down to their pricing demands etc. What is currently going on is a bloody disgrace!

As individuals many, many people don't realise the damage they are doing with how & where they shop. When I shop I take the time to look for Australian made or produced first & if possible South Australian made or produced ahead of that as I know there are Australian jobs on the other end of it.

2 hours ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

I believe in shopping local. And I’m sure you’ve heard me say before that I grow my own veges, fruit and want to sell my produce locally one day. And I want to live as sustainable as I can. That ethos goes hand in hand with respect, service and loyalty above cost.

Lusty I’m glad that you show such passion behind shopping local and I think others should to. 

I'm glad you saw what I said for how it was intended. Not a pot shot at yourself as some would. It's also refreshing to hear someone who shares the same view about this topic.

It's a shame more people don't think the same way. That's what greed does though.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[Worthog]

1 hour ago, porschemad911 said:

Hi Worthog,

I would just boil your 15 min Chinook hop addition with your mash runnings, then do the Cascade hop tea the next day. You'll get better hop utilization doing this.

If you do this, expect a 1.052 OG 48 IBU pre-fermentation once everything is diluted to 23 litres.

I've attached the calcs for the mash and boil portion (assuming a 0.6 l/kg grain absorption which is fairly typical for BIAB in my experience, 2.5 l/h boil-off, zero lautering loss and post-boil loss).

A quick summary - 8.3 litres end-of-boil volume, 1.084 SG, 63.4 IBU = 1.030 SG, 22.9 IBU diluted to 23 litres, then the APA kit adds 22 gravity points and 25.1 IBU when diluted to 23 litres.

Cheers,

John

brew_calc_biab.xlsx

Hi Porschemad911,

I really appreciate the work you have done on this. I have downloaded the spreadsheet and had a look through it. There is much in there I do not understand yet but it will be very handy for me once I have learned some of the scientific details of brewing grains.

I'm excited by the numbers that I do understand. I may even get a half decent beer out of it.  I will boil the Chinook as both you and Kelsey have suggested. Looking forward to the process and result.

Cheers

[James Lao]

I have done 4 brews now on the Roborew V3 and am happy with it.

Watched a few Gash Slugg vids and it is fairly easy, getting the strike and sparge water is pretty important.

Got Brewsmith 2 and think it is well worth it.

My 2 x hobgoblin ESBs have both been outstanding in my opinion - might be a bit biased.

My first AG IPA was not as good as some of my Kits and bits brews, but I think it was because of the hops - El Dorado, and chilling the wort too quickly /  not giving the flame out hops enough time. 

Just tasted my Citra IPA (4th AG brew), and it is up probably the best of my brews over the last couple of years.

Would recommend getting some kind of a pulley system though.

First time was a bit awkward for me lifting the malt pipe out then putting it on the ground and getting the spent grains out.

Second time had a pulley system set up and was able to suspend the malt pipe over the Boiler, move the Robo a bit  and drop the malt pipe onto some milk crates on a big stainless dish to drain out etc.

Cheers

James

 

 

[therealthing691]

well bit the bullet . All I need now is a temp controller which I have on order and ready to go. I am really busy for the next couple of weeks or so maybe start brewing before the end of July I hope.Fridge to use as a brew fridge below and a Gen3  Will be fun cheers Brian

[therealthing691]

A question to you think there would be much difference in end product from doing a mash and sparge .As to doing a full volume mash just a thought thanks in advance

[Hairy]

31 minutes ago, therealthing691 said:

A question to you think there would be much difference in end product from doing a mash and sparge .As to doing a full volume mash just a thought thanks in advance

You may find a difference in your mash and brewhouse efficiency but that affects how much grain to use rather than the taste.

[therealthing691]

cool I would expect lower efficiency yes would work it on say biab efficiency for doing a recipe??? Also are a MKII - Temperature Controller (Heat & Cool)  a not bad controller.  Cheers and thanks Hairy

[Otto Von Blotto]

Start with a nominal Brewhouse efficiency of say 70%, then measure your figures over a few batches and work out what your efficiency actually is, and if it's consistent then use that for recipe design. Consistency is more important than hitting high numbers. Really low efficiency isn't good but anywhere from.the mid 60s upward is fine.

There's no "BIAB efficiency" figure. It will vary from system to system. My system runs at a mash efficiency in the high 80s and Brewhouse efficiency around 75%. Yours might be different.

[porschemad911]

15 hours ago, therealthing691 said:

cool I would expect lower efficiency yes would work it on say biab efficiency for doing a recipe??? Also are a MKII - Temperature Controller (Heat & Cool)  a not bad controller.  Cheers and thanks Hairy

There's a few measurements you need to take in your trial batches to get your calculations right.

• Grain absorption rate (how much wort gets absorbed by each kg of grain)
• Lautering loss (strike volume - grain absorption - pre-boil volume)
• Boil-off rate (pre-boil volume - post-boil volume)
• Kettle to fermenter loss (fermenter volume - post-boil volume)

Once you have these down you can easily predict your result as long as you know the expected yield of your grain bill.

Mathematically yes, you will get lower efficiency doing no-sparge vs doing a sparge. It is to do with the gravity of the wort lost via absorption in the grain and left behind in the lauter, which will end up being higher in a no-sparge than if you sparge. I use a spreadsheet for my brewing that I have set up so I can compare how much grain I would need for a no-sparge vs a batch sparge (single or double).

Cheers,

John

[therealthing691]

thanks guys you are a real help  cheers Brian

[Otto Von Blotto]

Expected yield doesn't always correlate with the actual yield, otherwise there would be little if no variance in efficiency between brewers using the same systems and similar grain bills. The reality is that this isn't the case, I've seen a number of brewers using the same system I use with similar grain bills complaining about efficiency being 10-20% lower than I regularly achieve. 

Measure and record your own system, it's the best way to figure out your efficiency. 

[porschemad911]

Sure yep, measure all the variables and calculate your actual yield. That gives you a pretty idea of your expected yield over the course of a few batches.

Differences would be down to each brewer's grain crush, volumes, sparge vs no sparge and losses. The bunch of variables, that once you know what they are, helps you brew consistently.

But Kelsey, if someone with the same urn brewed the same beer next to you, using identical ingredients, process and timings, I doubt you'd get a different result.

Cheers, 

John