Beerlust Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 11 hours ago, karlos_1984 said: I can't really do the lusty method with squeazing the hop sock, as I'm fermenting in a 25 ltr water drum that fits snugly in my 60 ltr Waeco fridge. I shoved the hop sock thru the small lid/hole on first attempt and it was near impossible to prise it out after the hops had absorbed liquid and swelled up. On that occasion it would have done the same thing anyway as I had to sqeaze and prise the living piss out of it the get it out. That's why I've been dry hopping commando since then. This sounds very dodgy. How many litres are you fermenting in this 25 litre "water drum"? I'm looking at one of my 30ltr fermenters right now & I would want at least 4-5 litres worth of free headspace (minimum) for every brew. I've seen pics of fermenters around this size in 120ltr fridges & they are snug to say the least. I can only imagine how tight yours is in a 60ltr fridge! 28 minutes ago, jackgym said: Side tracking from the thread a bit. I'm not doubting your word here, Norris, but does anyone else have an opinion on just steeping as against boiling for flavour? Sub 80°C steeping allows for a gentler release of the aromatic hop oils into solution that avoids isomerisation of alpha acids that contribute to bitterness when above 80°C. There is a trade off though. The aromatic traits of the hop oils are the first to fade over time, so hops that are boiled will have more longevity in the beer flavour albeit at the cost of creating bitterness & diminished returns the longer they are boiled for. The key is to create a hop structure in your beer(s) that has the beer drinking at or near it's optimum when you are ready to drink them. With hoppy, more aromatic beers, the earlier the better before the hop influences begin to fade. Just my 2 cents. Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 That's exactly why I hop my pale ales the way I do. Because I no-chill, a 10 minute boil addition probably behaves more like a 15-20 minute addition in terms of flavor and bitterness, the flameout steep sort of like a 5-10 minute boil addition and the cube hop like a flameout steep. Then I throw in a 40-50g or maybe more dry hop a couple of days before the cold crash for extra aroma. It works well, and while the aroma doesn't completely last until the final glass, it doesn't completely disappear, and the flavor sticks around long enough that the beer doesn't really lose much. I just had a sample taste of my Waimea pale ale from the FG sample, tasting very piney and a good amount of bitterness as well. Couldn't get much of an idea on the aroma through such a small opening compared to a proper beer glass but I'm sure it'll be a winner once it's on tap. This hop could become a regular in the brewery if this beer turns out well, it would work well in combination with other hops I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, Otto Von Blotto said: This hop could become a regular in the brewery if this beer turns out well, it would work well in combination with other hops I reckon. Waimea also makes for an excellent bittering hop: very high AA and low co-humulone. I use it often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I bottled my Centennial DIPL on Sunday night. I used 5g/l at 5 mins, 7g/l at flameout and a 7g/l dry hop and the FG sample smelt and tasted so good. Actually the whole house smelt of Centennial for the whole of Monday too since the dry hops were in the kitchen bin in a cupboard. I dry hopped for 6 days using the Grain and Grape 30cm hop tube and the 75g had expanded to nearly fill it. So if you really want to taste and smell hops, you could try these rates since I can vouch for them working well. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, BlackSands said: Waimea also makes for an excellent bittering hop: very high AA and low co-humulone. I use it often. Yes I used it for bittering in this batch too, either FWH or a 60 minute addition. Can't remember which now, will have to check the brew sheet. Should be a nice beer though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Beerlust said: Sub 80°C steeping allows for a gentler release of the aromatic hop oils into solution that avoids isomerisation of alpha acids that contribute to bitterness when above 80°C. There is a trade off though. The aromatic traits of the hop oils are the first to fade over time, so hops that are boiled will have more longevity in the beer flavour albeit at the cost of creating bitterness & diminished returns the longer they are boiled My question about this statement is how can you save more oils and aromatics from doing a boil, 5 or 15 minutes, then a steep? Are we talking about isomersation of the oils? It should be noted that my statement was also made in context to using pre bittered kits. If the kit has enough bitterness for my taste I steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerlust Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, Norris! said: My question about this statement is how can you save more oils and aromatics from doing a boil, 5 or 15 minutes, then a steep? Are we talking about isomersation of the oils? Once you move beyond kits & bits, you can experiment with a technique known as First Wort Hopping. In it's basic form it is a steep of the hops before going into the boil. I believe it is very good at retaining hop flavour over a longer period. Cheers, Lusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackgym Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Beerlust said: Sub 80°C steeping allows for a gentler release of the aromatic hop oils into solution that avoids isomerisation of alpha acids that contribute to bitterness when above 80°C. There is a trade off though. The aromatic traits of the hop oils are the first to fade over time, so hops that are boiled will have more longevity in the beer flavour albeit at the cost of creating bitterness & diminished returns the longer they are boiled for. The key is to create a hop structure in your beer(s) that has the beer drinking at or near it's optimum when you are ready to drink them. With hoppy, more aromatic beers, the earlier the better before the hop influences begin to fade. Just my 2 cents. Lusty. Thanks Lusty. At the moment I'm having a bet each way by boiling (with LDM) 25g Amarillo for 5 mins. then adding 25g Nelson Sauvin for a further 10 mins. then steeping for 20 mins. I wait 30 days before drinking and the flavour seems to last a further 30 days until finished (1 PET per night). Kits and bits 23 litres.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Thank you Lusty. I forgot about what FWH brings, probably because I have never done one, that is a perfect example. I wonder if the steep in less than boiling wort at the beginning of the FWH retains the flavours somehow by locking them in even after a 60min or more boil? Hmm looks like I will be doing a FWH on my next ale! Lusty when you do a partial mash do you just toss the FWH into the wort that was gained from mashing before you turn the heat on to start the boil? Norris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Not sure what others do, but my method for FWH additions is to put them in once I've drained and removed the bag, false bottom etc. At this stage the wort is around 70°C. I then steep them for 15 minutes before turning the urn back on to bring the wort up to boil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris! Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Thank you Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 No worries mate. It seems to work pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Captain!! Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I simply pull the bag out, chuck the FWH addition and turn on the kettle. Straight up. Itll stay under the 80 degree mark for approximately 20 odd minutes that way Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly74 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 What's worked for me is a fwh charge, generally low ibu for hoppy styles (20% of total ibu), followed by a steep charge at knock out steeped for 25 minutes and counted as a 30 minute steep for ibu calculations, then cube hops with wort dropped into the cube at 80 C counted as a 5 minute steep for ibu calculations. With the % of hops added very late the ibu calculation becomes more of an educated guess, so it does take some practical experimentation. But I use that as my starting point and adjust from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly74 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 And same as John on fwh - just dump them in after the sparge then bring to a boil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlos_1984 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Beerlust said: This sounds very dodgy. How many litres are you fermenting in this 25 litre "water drum"? I'm looking at one of my 30ltr fermenters right now & I would want at least 4-5 litres worth of free headspace (minimum) for every brew. I've seen pics of fermenters around this size in 120ltr fridges & they are snug to say the least. I can only imagine how tight yours is in a 60ltr fridge! It's not dodgy at all. It's the same as what all the blokes on here refer to as a cube. Ive fermented a 20 ltr batch, a 12 ltr batch, and there's currently a 21 ltr batch in it now. There's heaps of room in the top and the Krausen has never looked like getting anywhere near the lid. It's a snug fit inside the fridge, but I can set the temp on the fridge to whatever I need. The fact that it takes up pretty much the whole area inside the fridge helps maintain the constant temperature I rkn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly74 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 May have an issue with consistent cooling across the cube. A little fan might help to recirculate the air and even it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#granted+brew Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Hello again Karlos, How are you measuring your temps? Are you just relying on the fridge controller or do you have another thermometer that you have stuck on the side of your cube or a probe or laser gun style one. In such a tight space the heat generated from fermentation in the first few days might be bringing your cube temp well above what your fridge temp reads. My first brew with no temp control was brewed at average 24°C but got to 26°C for a day or two and i noticed a twang when drinking but it wasn't that bad at 3 weeks, horrible almost at 2 months.... With my last couple ales I've done I've needed the heat belt on for at least the first day to keep it at 18°C then I need the fridge on for a day or two to keep it from rising above 18°C then at around day 3-4 the heat belt comes back into use... I've only got a $20 aquarium temp controller that only heats or cools depending on what you've got plugged in. I really need to get one of those inkbirds or STC 1000 Oh well, one day... Cheers, Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I based my technique for FWH additions on the method used with traditional brewing systems. I used to just start bringing the wort to the boil straight away until I read how it's actually done. https://beerandbrewing-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/try-first-wort-hopping?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQECAE4AQ%3D%3D#referrer=https://www.google.com&_tf=From %1%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fbeerandbrewing.com%2Ftry-first-wort-hopping Since I BIAB I obviously don't really have a runoff step or anything, so I incorporated the steep time to sort of mimic that on my own system. After reading that, perhaps I should make it longer than 15 minutes. Another option would be to add them when the grain bag is removed so they can steep while it drains, however I have no way to hoist it up currently which makes that pretty much impossible, but I'll consider it when I do. Cheers Kelsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Karlos I’m jumping into this thread late so haven’t read all replies. Has anyone suggested it could be your water? I had three kit brews that all had the same off-flavor despite some late boil hops and dry hops. I thought it was the kits, but my research and questions led ,e to believe it was the chloramines in the water. I in Sydney and my local supply treats water with chloramines. i bought some campden tablets, potassium metabisulfate and started treating every drop of water that made it into my brews. I diDnt experience the same off-flavor again since treating the water. i have since gone to all grain. It’s worth a try mate! Jools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Without knowing what the off flavour is, it's a bit difficult to diagnose the cause. It could be any number of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlos_1984 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 7 hours ago, #granted+brew said: Hello again Karlos, How are you measuring your temps? Are you just relying on the fridge controller or do you have another thermometer that you have stuck on the side of your cube or a probe or laser gun style one. In such a tight space the heat generated from fermentation in the first few days might be bringing your cube temp well above what your fridge temp reads. I have the fridge set to 19 degrees, it remains at 18-20 degrees throughout the fermentation process. This is as constant as I can get. I pitch at 18 degrees and u notice the fridge kicking into gear in the first few days after it heats up from fermentation. I check the temp on the side of the cube with a laser infrared thermometer which is the same as what the fridge thermometer is displaying. I think someone has mentioned the water source earlier in the thread. But I use puratap filtered Adelaide water. You can't taste the chlorine etc in it when drinking so I assume it should be fine? Besides the preboiled water used in hop tea or the boiled water from hop additions, all water used to top up to the required amount of litres is puratap water that's been chilled in sanitised plastic soft drink bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlos_1984 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 7 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said: Without knowing what the off flavour is, it's a bit difficult to diagnose the cause. It could be any number of things. I.woukdnt say it's off. There's just a more noticeable twang than there is hop presence. Given my methods, sanitization and amount of hops used I don't think it's right that all my beers taste the same. Who is in Adelaide that could sample and give me a 2nd opinion on this taste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 If it's twang maybe the fermentation temp is too high. I know you're using a fridge but it's measuring and controlling the ambient rather than the brew itself. If you've set it to 18, the beer could well be fermenting at 22-23 degrees in the most active stage. It's possible this is resulting in more influence from the yeast which may subdue the hops more than you want it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlos_1984 Posted July 10, 2018 Author Share Posted July 10, 2018 Maybe I should do a lager next then and set the temp to 10 degrees or something...see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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