Brews all taste the same

[ChristinaS1]

11 hours ago, karlos_1984 said:

This batch was brewed in a 25 ltr cube inside a fridge, sealed with sanitised, double layered glad wrap and rubber bands over the lid. All previous brews have been fermented in the Cooper's FV with only swamp cooling methods. 

Hi Karlos,

If you are using 110gm of hops you should be experiencing a good whack of hop flavour. I never use anywhere near that and have plenty of hop flavour.  This makes me wonder if the hops are oxidizing somehow, before you get to the serving stage.

Did you use glad wrap on your previous brews too? Perhaps that has something to do with it? Glad wrap lets lots of air in, which can lead to oxidation.  I would suggest loosing the Glad wrap. I know some on the forum advise against airlocks, but I would never brew without one, as they help to exclude air. I use them in combination with a carboy.

We have already talked about how PET bottles can lead to loss of hop flavour during storage. The same applies to PET carboys. I have both a PET carboy and a glass carboy. I find the beer brewed in the glass carboy tastes better.

Beer brewed in PET and bottled in PET is going to go stale fast. 

Cheers,

Christina.

[karlos_1984]

The FV was uncovered whilst tipping in the extract can, LDM and all the water. Surely this isn't causing my issues?

I've been reading around the net and other sites suggest it may be from a scratch in the plastic that is causing the issue. I have noticed some minor scratching to the bottom of the FV from the mixing spoon. I don't really want to replace it, has only done 4 brews.

[karlos_1984]

Christina, haven't used glad wrap until now. The only other thing that is constant is my hop sock and using US-05 yeast. This beer is in glass bottles. I do recall tasting the sample at FG and it was nice. Then I tasted the final sample after the dry hop at bottling time and straight away thought it tasted like the last brew. Maybe my hop sock is to blame? I sanitised it before use in star san.

I bottled one long neck before adding the dry hop for comparisons sake. I'll see how it turned out to try and rule the hop sock out.

[ChristinaS1]

35 minutes ago, karlos_1984 said:

Christina, haven't used glad wrap until now. The only other thing that is constant is my hop sock and using US-05 yeast. This beer is in glass bottles. I do recall tasting the sample at FG and it was nice. Then I tasted the final sample after the dry hop at bottling time and straight away thought it tasted like the last brew. Maybe my hop sock is to blame? I sanitised it before use in star san.

I bottled one long neck before adding the dry hop for comparisons sake. I'll see how it turned out to try and rule the hop sock out.

I always dry hop commando style. I read that is the way to get the most out of your hops....Brulosophy uses the commando method; he cold crashes, and fines with gelatine to remove them.  Personally I find cold crashing alone good enough, but I make APAs, not IPAs. Maybe if one uses a lot of hops, gelatine, or some other fining agent, might be necessary. 

If you have the ability to cold crash, try that first. If that doesn't clear enough hops, try gelatine. If you are still not happy, or if you can''t cold crash,  then use some form of containment. Several forum members use those cylindrical tube thingies. I have read that if the hops are packed too tightly, flavour extraction is reduced, which makes sense.

Cheers,

Christina.

[RepSpec]

ive read this thread a few times...i believe ive had the same thing happen with a couple of brews, but cant place it on anything.

Someone mentioned it previously and it went unanswered (from what i could see) about what beers YOU actually drink (that arent your HB). I tend to drink heavy APA or IPA if i go out and when i get home and drink mine...sometimes i cant taste the difference.

Have you had friends and family try the different beers to get a different opinion?

Perhaps try an extract brew next time and create your own recipes with the help of people on here...

[Otto Von Blotto]

Although I'm not a fan of glad wrap on fermenters, I don't think this is causing your issue. I use my fermenter lid in a similar way (sans airlock) and never experience any issues. It could be that where you mix your brews there's a concentration of wild yeast or other bugs, it could be the scratches in the fermenter harbouring bugs. But there's a difference between beer that tastes like it's infected or otherwise compromised and a string of batches that merely taste like each other. If it's tasting off a bit then you could have a spoilage organism - other than the yeast you pitch of course.

Gelatine won't drop out visible hop matter either. Its primary use is for yeast, though it probably helps a bit with some chill haze causing protein particles as well (I don't believe it works on polyphenols). These particles are invisible, unlike floating or suspended hop matter that you can see plain as day. Only time and/or cold temperatures will see visible hop matter drop out.

Cheers

Kelsey

[karlos_1984]

My issue is not that the beers aren't Hoppy enough. It's the simple fact that I can't taste the hops whatsoever. Given I've used over 100g dry hop I should be able to taste something. I don't. The beers don't taste off or anything, they are still completely drinkable. But it's not good enough. I'm wasting time and money throwing all these hops at these brews and not getting any reward for my efforts, due to some unidentified issue that's somehow over powering what the hops should be doing. To say I'm frustrated would be an understatement.

Friends have tried my past brews and all have said good things, however these blokes don't usually drink much else than megaswill.

I'll drink srong pale ales and ipas on tap when out and about. At home, the beers i drink that are store bought range from any various brands of pale ale, to euro lagers like Peroni in the warmer months, or on odd occasion I'll splurge and get a 6 pack of something local like PL, prancing pony, etc. I'm not expecting my home brews to be on par with these crafties, but i should be getting something a bit more flavoured than just a kit twang. That being said, I can't explain how the Cooper's IPA, OS lager and TC bootmaker pale bases can all come out tasting the same at the end. It just doesn't make sense.

I did make a stout in amongst the above 3 and it still tastes like a stout. It's OK, but not too bad. Still has a hint of the extract twang, but it was still fermented in the Cooper's FV using swamp cooling method. It had some choc malt steeped and added after a 15 min boil. The other main difference was I used 2 X kit yeast and no dry hop for it.

The hops I just used had been in the freezer for awhile. When I opened the ziplock they were in, could still smell a very nice hop aroma before adding them to the hop sock. 

If I do a side by side taste of the bottled end result and the bottled one i did before adding the dry hops, and there is a noticeable difference, then surely it must be something to do with the hops??

REPSPEC: you said you've had this happen a couple of times. What did u do to get past the problem? Have u managed to make any successful brews since? What did you change.

 

As far as I can tell, my cleaning and sanitizing methods are quite thorough and meticulous. The only thing that comes to mind with the latest brew was that I think I just rinsed my hop sock under the hot water tap when finishing the previous brew. I didn't boil it in water this time, just dunked it in starsan before adding the hops and throwing it into the cube. 

FYI, when I mix up everything in the FV, it just sits on a towel on the kitchen floor, so the jig and sink are still at arm's reach if needed.

I use filtered puratap water which is chilled overnight in sanitised clear plastic bottles, which had only had soda water from woolies in them beforehand. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

The only thing I can think of is that the hop sock is too small for the amount of hops used and they aren't being allowed to expand properly, thus you're not getting anything like the influence from them that you should be getting. Maybe try a batch just chucking them in commando style and see if it makes any difference. It doesn't sound like infection is an issue here.

[Worthog]

28 minutes ago, karlos_1984 said:

 

 

...As far as I can tell, my cleaning and sanitizing methods are quite thorough and meticulous. The only thing that comes to mind with the latest brew was that I think I just rinsed my hop sock under the hot water tap when finishing the previous brew. I didn't boil it in water this time, just dunked it in starsan before adding the hops and throwing it into the cube. 

...I use filtered puratap water which is chilled overnight in sanitised clear plastic bottles, which had only had soda water from woolies in them beforehand. 

When I first started adding hops, it was a 20 minute boil of SAAZ in with my added Caramalt grains. My brews are all kit'n'extract at this stage. The taste of the SAAZ was subtle when bottle tasted after 2-3 weeks. It was a noticeably earthy, spicy taste though, as expected. A lot of drinkers would not notice it though.

Then I made a Coopers APA by the book, but with US-05 yeast rather than the Kit yeast. I late hoped commando style after fermentation and boy, you could not miss that hop taste, firstly at bottling, then 2-3 weeks later after bottle conditioning. Really, the taste was obvious and powerful. This taste diminished slowly over 4-8 weeks but was always still evident.

I've had same result with Cascade Hops. Even dry hopped in a new Chux cloth and squeezed later upon removal, still leaves a powerful hop taste.

My suggestion to you is, make a standard Coopers APA and commando 40g Amarillo hop into it at cold crash. If neither your nor your friends can taste that, I'll be stuffed. It tastes very much like a "Cricketers Arms" beer, to give you an idea.

[RepSpec]

Someone correct me here, but i thought it was

Boil hops for bitterness and flavour 

Dry hop for aroma

So if you are not noticing any flavour...but they smell ok...then maybe you need to try a short boil?

 

I take 3-5ltrs of water...bring to the boil and then add 500g of LDM.

Then depending on what im after, il do a boil for 15mins of a hop (say 15-25g), then a 10min boil or a flameout addition (heat off, add hops for 10-15mins)...which (again someone correct me) imparts flavour without adding too much bitterness due to the heat not getting through the hops too much.

 

again...this could help and make a difference to the taste.

I have noticed mine taste similar....however all of my beers (except for my stout) have been APA can and LDM/dextrose... with hops boiled and dry...so they are going to have similar traits, once the dry hop flavours fade out...

found this with a quick google search.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/11/11/best-hop-techniques-for-homebrewing/

 

i remember there been a ven-diagram thingy which showed overlapping flavour, bitterness and aroma profiles as well

[RepSpec]

*re edit...that should read "once the HOP flavours fade out slightly"

[ChristinaS1]

7 hours ago, RepSpec said:

Someone correct me here, but i thought it was

Boil hops for bitterness and flavour 

Dry hop for aroma

So if you are not noticing any flavour...but they smell ok...then maybe you need to try a short boil?

....i remember there been a ven-diagram thingy which showed overlapping flavour, bitterness and aroma profiles as well

I think I know the diagram you are talking about. You do get some aroma if the boil is less than ten minutes, and the closer it is to flameout, the more aroma you get. The various hop oils all have different flash points; some withstand heat better than others. Active boiling also carries them away, which is one reason to consider flameout and whirlpool hops.

There is also a theory that some strains of yeast are able to transform some hop oils into others during fermentation (biotransformation), which is why some brewers add part of the dry hop charge before fermentation is complete, but I heard an interview with John Palmer, recorded earlier this year, in which he said there is no scientific evidence that any of the commonly used strains of brewer's yeast can conduct biotransformation. 

Dry hops do provide aroma but I get flavour from dry hops as well, which I think it is due to extended contact with the hops. Hops added before fermentation are strained out. 

Cheers,

Christina.

 

[Roomfullofmirrors]

Karlos, I feel your pain.   I looked back at a thread I started on another forum and the similarities to your struggle are uncanny! https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/got-to-be-airborne-right.54973/

While I'm sad to report that I never really got to the bottom of the problem,  I do believe it was/is a wild yeast inoculation.  Every once in a while it comes back to haunt my brewery but for the most part, I successfully knock out great beer!

I should mention it took me years of persistence and many tipped batches to arrive here.  So, I hope you persevere and find the method that works for you.

As frustrating as the journey has been,  I have learned a great deal and IMHO have become a better brewer.   The support and suggestions from members on this forum is really great to see - and the knowledge shared will benefit your brewing for years to come - but this type of problem is difficult to understand if you haven't experienced it yourself.  I really wish I could give you the magic cure for this, but it's likely something you will need to discover for yourself.

I can only suggest these few things... be fastidious in your cleaning and sanitation, limit wherever possible your wort's exposure to the environment/atmosphere, pitch (active) yeast at rates that don't allow any other organisms a chance ...and continue to read and research and strive for those beers that you are happy with.

Best of luck,

RFOM

[karlos_1984]

Update: I might have isolated the cause of my issues.

Today I put a stubby of the final product beer (with dry hop) in the fridge, together with the longneck I bottled prior to the dry hop.

Tasted both side by side. As expected, the beer with hops added tasted the same as always. Bland. Twang.

The long neck without the hops, fantastic. Tasted amazing. Good head, nice malt and smooth bitterness and was as clear AF. Was actually rewarding to taste something delicious and different from a basic kits n bits brew.

I got my Mrs to taste both and didn't tell her which was which. Straight away she said the beer without hops was way better.

Hopefully this confirms that my issue mustn't be wild yeast. It's got to be the hop sock causing the dramas because it's the only common denominator with the 3 beers that have all tasted the same.

My stout was ok and it's the only beer I've brewed so far without dry hopping and/or the hop sock. Kelsey you mentioned the hops might not be allowed enough room to expand whilst they've been in the hop sock. Given the amount I threw into this brew and no result you're probably right. I reckon the sock hasn't been cleaned and is causing the issue.

The strange thing is, my cube still smells amazing from hops, yet no taste in the beer.

I think I'll stick to my same routine re cleaning/sanitization and either forgo the hops in the next brew or just dry hop commando and cold crash.

When time permits, I'll pour off some of the dud beer and let it go flat and warm up and take another hydrometer reading. That should confirm if the FG has.dropped any further and if any wild yeast is actually still chewing away at the beer.

Thanks for all your advice and ideas. 

[PaddyBrew2]

Chuck them in commando mate. I’ve just bottled an ipa. Loads of hop debris and floaties but I cold crashed for 5 days and despite the odd particle making its way into a bottle or two , it smelt amazing. Tried the hop sock once and did the squeeze trick but for all the good it done I may as well have not added hops

just my three cents

cheers

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I do a mixture of commando and dry hopping in a stainless tea strainer. I haven't noticed much difference between the two, and I usually use the strainer because it stops the floaties. I have four large ones that would easily hold 50-60g each. The floaties themselves don't worry me, but I don't want them in the keg in case they cause blockages. Even with a decent cold crash there's still some that get stirred up by transferring the beer to the keg. I used to notice them in my bottling bucket when I bulk primed so I don't see why it'd be any different in a keg.

Cheers

Kelsey

[Beerlust]

Hi Karlos_1984.

On 5/21/2018 at 6:51 PM, karlos_1984 said:

Given my previous failings using a fairly decent size dry hop, what amount of dry hops should adequately flavour this beer? I don't want to waste more hops and not get any flavour like previously...

...It's only been a week since I bottled this latest batch, but couldn't help myself.

Different recipe base, more hops, yet STILL TASTES THE SAME. There is literally no hop flavour or aroma. I used 110g of total dry hop in a basic kit n kilo in 20 ltrs.

I know the beer is young, but seriously. This is doing my f'ing head in.

Sorry for not noticing this thread & your pain earlier. The mistake you are making here is trying to achieve hop flavour by dry hopping. It won't happen.

The same hops you used on this latest brew for dry hopping, switch & steep in approx. 1-2 litres of 70-80°C water for 20mins (a hop tea) & then strain directly into your fermenter with the rest of your ingredients prior to pitching your yeast. If you want hop flavour when using a kit base, this is how you'll get it without increasing the bitterness of the beer.

Give it a go & let us know how it turns out. I expect you'll be very happy with the end result.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

[Worthog]

9 hours ago, Beerlust said:

Hi Karlos_1984.

Sorry for not noticing this thread & your pain earlier. The mistake you are making here is trying to achieve hop flavour by dry hopping. It won't happen.

The same hops you used on this latest brew for dry hopping, switch & steep in approx. 1-2 litres of 70-80°C water for 20mins (a hop tea) & then strain directly into your fermenter with the rest of your ingredients prior to pitching your yeast. If you want hop flavour when using a kit base, this is how you'll get it without increasing the bitterness of the beer.

Give it a go & let us know how it turns out. I expect you'll be very happy with the end result.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.

+1.  Definitely works for me.

Here is a link to charts which indicate boil times for Bitterness/Flavour/Aroma which I also use as a guide to hop boils. I still think commando-ing or hopped chux cloth tossed into fermenter for 3 days after FG, then squeezed and removed prior to cold crash, seems to provide more than Aroma only. It might be just me, but I'm sure I am also tasting flavours rather than just smelling them. This may simply be a trick of the senses, but dry hopping seems a way to sense various hop Aromas and flavours.

https://www.google.com.au/search?rlz=1C1AOHY_enAU733AU733&tbm=isch&q=hop+boil+time+chart&backchip=online_chips:hop+utilization&chips=q:hop+boil+time+chart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT0KGzxJ_bAhUBipQKHX3gBEgQ3VYIJCgA&biw=1024&bih=649&dpr=1

Cheers, 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

You do get some flavour from dry hopping but relying on it alone for flavour probably isn't gonna give you what you want. Over the dozens of pale ales I've brewed, I've found a combination of short boil, flameout steeped and dry hops, and more recently cube hops as well, has given me a decent hop flavour and aroma. The beers taste similar but the different hops are noticeable from batch to batch.

Cheers

Kelsey

[The Captain!!]

55 minutes ago, Worthog said:

+1.  Definitely works for me.

Here is a link to charts which indicate boil times for Bitterness/Flavour/Aroma which I also use as a guide to hop boils. I still think commando-ing or hopped chux cloth tossed into fermenter for 3 days after FG, then squeezed and removed prior to cold crash, seems to provide more than Aroma only. It might be just me, but I'm sure I am also tasting flavours rather than just smelling them. This may simply be a trick of the senses, but dry hopping seems a way to sense various hop Aromas and flavours.

https://www.google.com.au/search?rlz=1C1AOHY_enAU733AU733&tbm=isch&q=hop+boil+time+chart&backchip=online_chips:hop+utilization&chips=q:hop+boil+time+chart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT0KGzxJ_bAhUBipQKHX3gBEgQ3VYIJCgA&biw=1024&bih=649&dpr=1

Cheers, 

 

Hey Worthog,

That’s a great chart mate.

Completly agree with ya.

Aroma will “trick” your brain into thinking that there’s more flavour. 

Try your beer as a side by side, one with a stubby and one with a glass that comes in at the top a little, like a wine glass. This’ll help contain some of the aroma. 

I bet that you’ll taste the difference. Even if you only notice a slight change, it’s an improvement IMO. Whether I had a preconceived notion to think that this would make beer flavours more noticeable.... maybe, it’s a bit hard to do a blind taste when ya drinking out a stubby or a wine glass ha ha ha 

Just my thoughts anyway 

Captain

[highlands]

That graph indicates not much flavour will be imparted with a 10 minute boil (or steep?) whereas I got quite a lot of flavour boiling 25g of galaxy for 10min and steeping 25g for 10min in 5L of water.

Maybe it varies depending on which hops you use and their properties. 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

I can vouch for the glass vs. stubby thing. I had a batch a few years ago that I mainly poured into a glass but took some to a party one night and drank them from the bottle. It was a nice brew poured into a glass but drinking from the bottle it tasted rubbish by comparison. Since then I've always poured beer into a glass.

[The Captain!!]

53 minutes ago, highlands said:

That graph indicates not much flavour will be imparted with a 10 minute boil (or steep?) whereas I got quite a lot of flavour boiling 25g of galaxy for 10min and steeping 25g for 10min in 5L of water.

Maybe it varies depending on which hops you use and their properties. 

 

Do you think you may have got more flavour from the same amount of hops given the extra time in the steep. Maybe?

Captain 

[highlands]

6 minutes ago, The Captain1525230099 said:

Do you think you may have got more flavour from the same amount of hops given the extra time in the steep. Maybe?

Captain 

I removed the hops after the boil then steeped new hops. Does steeping impart more flavour than a short boil? I only steeped to add more flavour without bitterness but am unsure if it adds more flavour than a short boil. 

[The Captain!!]

This’ll probably start a fight here but I believe steeping imparts more flavour due to lower temperatures and steam not evaporating the oils that are extracted by heat. 

If that makes sense.

Captain