Flat Beer

[DonPolo]

OK so cleaned a glass with detergent. Fully rinsed out three times (it's a Bitburger glass from Germany). After rinsing soaked it in hot water and perc overnight. Rinsed out three times with hot water. Dried the glass.

This time, I poured an IPA that I had bottled on 15/7. Yes I know, rather young but it was the only one in the fridge and I only realised it when I had poured.  Put it in the fridge by mistake.

Some good news and some bad news. The good news is that it tasted fine. Not medicinal at all unlike it's older brother. I would have to say though, that the Cascade, Centennial and Galaxy dry hop wasn't overly apparent; definitely doing a hop tea at least next time. As an IPA? Hmmm nowhere near as hop bomby or bitter as the ' Rumpole ' American Pale Ale I sampled at the Wig and Pen in Canberra earlier on in the day but still very drinkable.

The bad news? Head quickly disappeared leaving a apparently flat beer. However, there was carbonation judging from the bubbles rising from the glass and on the palate.

I'll have to reserve complete judgement until it is at least a month old I reckon. Two weeks in the bottle is probably pushing it. However with the Carapils addition, I thought there would just a bit of promise.

At least it tastes good!  

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

At least it's not flat. It's annoying when the head doesn't stick around but I'd rather drink a carbonated beer with no head than a flat beer that somehow holds its foam. Loading up beers with late and dry hops apparently helps with head retention and lacing. That's why you often see it happen with IPAs and such.

[PaddyBrew2]

that glass cleaning schedule would quickly grate on you everytime you wanted to blow a few suds off

2 hours ago, DonPolo said:

OK so cleaned a glass with detergent. Fully rinsed out three times (it's a Bitburger glass from Germany). After rinsing soaked it in hot water and perc overnight. Rinsed out three times with hot water. Dried the glass.

 

 

 

[PB2]

4 hours ago, DonPolo said:

Rinsed out three times with hot water. Dried the glass.

Did you allow it to air dry or manually dry it with a cloth of some sort?

[Worthog]

I find that if you have grains and late hops in the beer, then you will always get head retention given the beer is not green, or your glass is not greasy. I find the head retention gets better from approximately 4 weeks on, from bottle date, for kits’n’steeps, or earlier for a grain mash.

My glasses; I have “alkaline salted”, “sodium percarbonated”, “phosphoric acided”, brushed and scrubbed for various effects, usually very good. I’m not convinced some of these processes clear unseen “grease” which is a head killer.

But these days I get my consistent best results; Wash in hot-hot water (not with the greasy dinner dishes) with liquid detergent concentrate and a sponge. Then I rinse well with stinking hot water, and turn the glass upside down to air dry.

My Headmaster nucleated glasses are always brilliant for head retention washed this way, unless I am drinking a too green beer.

Cheers
 

[Otto Von Blotto]

My headmaster and other nucleated glasses are great with just a perc soak and hot water rinse, except when they haven't been rinsed properly (sometimes I come home and find the glass(es) draining and swmbo doesn't always fully rinse them). But the occasional wash in detergent is useful. 

[Beer Baron]

I chuck my glasses in the dishwasher and they come out sparkling and I don’t have any head retention issues. 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Dishwashers rinse pretty thoroughly and quite hot. I'd be inclined to do the same if we had one, even if it was only every so often.

[joolbag]

DonPolo have you tried to test/eliminate the variable that is your glasses? Get a commercial beer that is known for a fluffy, long lasting head and pour it into the suspect glasses.

 

If it retains the head and laces down the glass, then you know where to focus your efforts.

 

Good luck, this thread has me baffled

[DonPolo]

6 hours ago, PB2 said:

Did you allow it to air dry or manually dry it with a cloth of some sort?

Air dry

[DonPolo]

2 hours ago, joolbag said:

DonPolo have you tried to test/eliminate the variable that is your glasses? Get a commercial beer that is known for a fluffy, long lasting head and pour it into the suspect glasses.

 

If it retains the head and laces down the glass, then you know where to focus your efforts.

 

Good luck, this thread has me baffled

Sadly and mysteriously I have indeed soiled my glasses with megaswill and other commercial heretical brews but only in the name of scientific enquiry you understand. Long lasting heads and lacing seemed to occur effortlessly! 

Unfortunately for all my efforts; grain cracking and steeping, hop teaing and late hopping, I still am yet to crack it for a long lasting, glass lacing brew.

The glasses have been dishwashered, detergented, perced, scrubbed, rinsed with the equivalent of a boiling Pacific Ocean, air-dried and yet to no avail!

Tried another of the first iteration of the IPA tonight. It was a half PET that I bottled because I couldn't bear tipping half a bottle down the drain at the end of a bottling. I'd have to say that a lot of the medicinal flavour had disappeared (or maybe I'm getting used to it).  But sadly it too showed all the foam of a still day at Lake Burley Griffin  

[Worthog]

Hi Donpolo,

It might be time to write down all of the things you have eliminated to get to the bottom of the process problem. I believe the home brewing processes are simple; for example, I have not been able to get an infection in 55 batches and I am no more meticulous than the next guy.

Eg: Eliminated;

1. The kits (nothing wrong here)
2. FV cleanliness/sanitation
3. Equipment c/s
4. Water (boiled if nec for chlorine)
5. Steep process (final boil)
6. Yeast rehydrate c/s, temp.
7. Ferment temp
8. Bottle prep c/s
9. Bottle seal
10. Bottle conditioning temp
11. Time in bottle over 18c (+3-4 wks)
12. Glass prep

When you have eliminated all process issues and your problem remains, then there is something you are doing wrong and you need onsite help to review all your steps.

Cheers

Edited July 30, 2018 by Worthog

[DonPolo]

4 hours ago, Worthog said:

When you have eliminated all process issues and your problem remains, then there is something you are doing wrong and you need onsite help to review all your steps.

 

Thanks Worthog,

Of that list the only thing I think that I cannot eliminate is the boiling of the water for the chlorine.

I am led to believe that Canberra water is pretty good and it only very occasionally has any hint of chlorine although undoubtedly it is treated.

On the other hand other 'brewing colleagues' have produced pretty good beers from the same water but I have yet to ask them if they boiled the water.

If over chlorinated water routinely ruins head/carbonation then that could be it.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't think chlorination has any effect on head retention, it may do but I haven't heard of it before. It doesn't have any effect on carbonation though. However, it can result in off flavors like the medicinal flavor you tasted in one of the ones you tried. You don't have to boil water to remove free chlorine, letting it sit overnight will evaporate it out as well. If the water is treated with chloramines, these can't be removed with sitting or boiling - you'll need sodium or potassium metabisulphite for those.

[DonPolo]

3 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

I don't think chlorination has any effect on head retention, it may do but I haven't heard of it before. It doesn't have any effect on carbonation though. However, it can result in off flavors like the medicinal flavor you tasted in one of the ones you tried. You don't have to boil water to remove free chlorine, letting it sit overnight will evaporate it out as well. If the water is treated with chloramines, these can't be removed with sitting or boiling - you'll need sodium or potassium metabisulphite for those.

Thanks Kelsey,

I haven't heard of any other chlorine problems in Canberra before. If so, perhaps if someone from Canberra sees this they may want to comment.

I might wander down to the many 'craft' brewers in this town and see if they have any further comments. I know they likely don't homebrew anymore but they might have a couple tips.

Come to think of it, the guy who sells me the hops, yeast and perc might have some idea about the local conditions.

A worthwhile discussion anyway. Gave me some ideas.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Commercial brewers would be removing chlorine if they're using town water anyway. The last thing they want is a batch full of crappy off flavors. 

However, that flavor, or similar ones that can be confused with it, can be caused by other things as well so it's not automatically chlorine related. Wild yeast could introduce similar flavors for example. 

While I do think removing chlorine is a good idea, I don't think it's behind the issues you're having with head retention.

[porschemad911]

9 hours ago, DonPolo said:

I am led to believe that Canberra water is pretty good and it only very occasionally has any hint of chlorine although undoubtedly it is treated.

I don't boil my Canberra tap water to get rid of chlorine and have no issues with head formation or retention with either kits and bits or all grain beers. I wash my glasses with washing up liquid in the sink, rinse well and air / towel dry. Sometimes I look at the lacing on the glass and think 'I should take a photo of that', but can never be bothered (latest example was my Mosaic Rye lager on Tapadraft). 

Cheers, 

John

[porschemad911]

DonPolo, try one of those red picnic cups fresh from the packet (the ones in a stack). If you don't get great head retention with one of those then it is undoubtedly an issue with the beer.

Cheers, 

John

[Hairy]

1 hour ago, porschemad911 said:

I wash my glasses with washing up liquid in the sink, rinse well and air / towel dry. Sometimes I look at the lacing on the glass and think 'I should take a photo of that', but can never be bothered (latest example was my Mosaic Rye lager on Tapadraft). 

Cheers, 

John

I do the same. Wash my glasses in the sink with dish washing detergent and then rinse really well with hot water. I always hear people saying that detergent is bad for head retention but it is fine if it is rinsed well. Having a greasy glass is much worse.

I have no problem with head retention.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Hairy

[DonPolo]

Thanks guys,

I'll take your advice. I actually have a few of those red plastic cups in the kitchen somewhere; I'll see what happens.

On another update I opened a 'draft' that I bottled in February the other night. No problems at all. Nice dense head, normal carbonation. Lacing? Not so much but not bad.

Actually the taste was MUCH better that what I remember up to about six weeks ago, so bottle age definitely helped that one. From memory the draft didn't have any carapils just a late hop. Before those six weeks it tasted 'tinny' and had the 'coca cola' type head and carbonation that I've mentioned before.

It seems that it might just be a bottle age issue. However, a lot of the info from Coopers says that wait for about two weeks before drinking. Whether it is the weather, the humidity, the barometric pressure or the water, it seems that we are talking about a much longer aging time at least in my part of Canberra!

[Otto Von Blotto]

While you can drink them after two weeks as carbonation should be complete, they do benefit from longer ageing periods. Head development and retention seems to be improved by this in bottled beer. I've never really noticed a problem with it in my kegged beers, it's the same whether I tap it straight away or leave it for a few weeks.

[DonPolo]

I've vowed not to take this beer making lark too serious so not getting into all grain/kegging etc. But I feel myself weakening! I have a bit of a perfectionist streak with a touch of  a "use of economy of effort (laziness?) inclination. So it is a continual tension when things are not 'perfect' but to get there might take a whole lot of palver. There's a post on here about how much difference do small changes make. I've always been wary of getting too fine grained on anything such as does a $20,000 HiFi unit sound 20 times better than a $1000 unit? Probably an equation of passion v time and money. At the moment I'm inclined to still let Mr Cooper help me along a bit until I can be convinced that taking that extra step is worth it.

[Worthog]

And Mr Cooper helps us along well. His willingness to provide this forum, for instance, which in my view, particularly with a lot of brewers moving to mash, does not necessarily equate to more Coopers sales. A great Australian company in my view. (No, I do not work for them). 

Cheers

[Otto Von Blotto]

The difference between bottled and kegged beers regarding head retention could simply be due to the fact that beer conditions faster in kegs than it does in bottles. I quite like it because it only takes a week in a keg for it to taste as good as  3-4 weeks in bottles.

[DonPolo]

So tried both the plastic cup test and the poured into the very clean glass test (in fact two very clean glasses).

The pour into the plastic cup test did in fact yield a head that stayed around for about 30 secondsish. 

The one into the glass is the subject of these two photographs. The first is the head after the pour - what you can't see is that the 'head' is more like the fizz you get when pouring a coke into a glass; big bubbles that dissipate very quickly.

The second picture shows the glass after a maximum of 10 seconds. The beer is flat, like hydrometer test flat. The bottle was very hard and there was gas escaping when I opened it. There maybe CO2 in the beer even though it appears flat but there were no bubbles rising through the glass.

Still a mystery.

Tasted OK but in more of a refrigerated pre bottling hydrometer test sample way.