Flat Beer

[Otto Von Blotto]

You won't get bubbles rising through the glass if there's no nucleation points for them to form on. Since the glasses are clean, there likely won't be unless you're using nucleated glasses. I don't get bubbles rising through the beer in my smooth glasses either.

However, it seems your issue is head retention, not lack of carbonation. Why though, is a mystery.

[Worthog]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

......Why though, is a mystery.

I've never seen a beer bottled for a few weeks look like that. Something seriously wrong with recipe or process.

[Otto Von Blotto]

1 hour ago, Worthog said:

I've never seen a beer bottled for a few weeks look like that. Something seriously wrong with recipe or process.

Neither have I, all through kits, extracts, all grain, bottled and kegged. It does sound like a recipe or process issue to me too though. 

[DonPolo]

Well the recipe has been pretty standard. Kit can warmed in hot water, opened and poured into sterilized fermenter in which about 3 litres of water has been deposited. WCarapils cracked and steeped in water for 30 minutes around 70C. Strained then boiled for 10 minutes and added to wort. Yeast rehydrated according to standard procedure and pitched. ater put into fridge to cool it down to ensure that wort temperature is in the range 18-21C. Fermented for over a week and stable SG tested to determine end of fermentation. Late hopped.

All bottles and tops perced, rinsed and sterilised before bottling. Bottles stored in at least 18C environment for over a month. Bottles firm after aging.

But wait stop press.

Opened my last brew which has been in the bottle since 15/7 and got the following effect: I poured the first glass and it behaved just like the others; initially a fizzy head that dissipated rapidly. Have to say it tasted quite good although the galaxy wasn't overly noticeable but overall a satisfying brew.

Then I noticed the bottle that I had recapped showing a large 'head' inside. It had not been shaken. It had been poured just as usual.

Then I poured the second glass and got a dense creamy head (pictured). When I had poured it initially it was a bit cloudy as the second glass from a 740ml bottle tends to do. This is the picture here (didn't take a picture of the clear glass.

Another mystery was that I  put it down to do some other things and on return noticed the head was still there. But additionally the beer had become crystal clear.

The head stayed there the whole time I was savouring it (about 15 minutes). 

Add to that, lacing that anyone would be proud of.

Mysteriouser and Mysteriouser!

[Otto Von Blotto]

See, there's nothing about that process or recipe that stands out as problematic. The foaming in the bottle is easy, the yeast sediment would be providing nucleation sites for bubbles to form on and rise through the beer. Perhaps it was doing something similar in that second glass as well. Do you have any nucleated beer glasses? Perhaps you could try one of those and see if it makes any difference. Sometimes I do wind up with a beer with crappy head retention - even though bubbles can be seen rising through the beer, they just burst upon reaching the top.

[Worthog]

There is nothing wrong with that beer. The frothy bottle is a bit odd, I don't get that if the bottle is cold.

That brown looking froth in the center of the head is swirled up sediment, probably from the hop residue. This will diminish with bottle conditioning time and then a longer fridge time as it will harden and stay in the bottom of the bottle.

You can definitely get some variation through a batch as they are bottled through differing layers in the FV, although this diminishes with cold crashed batches.

I  find this variation diminishes with time in the bottle, like 6 weeks in.

Anyway, nice looking beer, enjoy.

Cheers

[Worthog]

Just another tip about bottle to glass pour (some of these hogshead drivers may have forgotten this since their bottling days);

This is for your bottles with a generally firm dusting of hard yeast at bottom of bottle.

Sometimes when the bottle has been refrigerated for a couple of days you may notice a slight difference between the first and second glass, even when poured at the same time, eg 2 people drinking.

Take the bottle from the fridge, turn horizontal, and gently rotate it once or twice prior to opening.

Then both parties get identical lovely lacing glasses of beer.

Cheers

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

That would work if both parties are happy with yeast all through their beer I never liked it, it seemed to affect the flavor of the beer negatively to me.

[PaddyBrew2]

Sometimes you can read too much into things or obsess about things that in the end don’t really matter. A perfect beer should look clear, adequately carbonated , nice head and lacing. That’s what they all look like on ads and pics right?!

a beer is 99% flavour and 1% aesthetics.  You could have a pint of band aid that looked like the dogs bollocks but you’d be in bed for a week after it

Or you could have a beer that mightn’t look as bubbly, vivacious or creamy like all the ones in the pictures but wow does it taste good. I’ve often remarked on here that some of the higher end craft beer that 30 bucks a six pack, when poured has little head after five minutes but boy does it hit the spot

[Otto Von Blotto]

I always found beer that lacked a head just didn't taste right, or didn't taste as good as the same beer with a head, and there may be something in that. The head isn't just about looks (although personally it doesn't seem like a real beer without it), it also releases the aroma - very important to the taste. With no head it doesn't mean no aroma is released but it is a lot less. 

I don't find lacing makes any difference to the taste so I don't really care about that, but I do want the head itself to stick around as long as possible, and most of the time it does.

[DonPolo]

2 hours ago, Otto Von Blotto said:

That would work if both parties are happy with yeast all through their beer I never liked it, it seemed to affect the flavor of the beer negatively to me.

Yes I was wondering about that. Personally I don't worry too much about cloudy beer. Even some of the bigger 'craft' breweries seem to pour beers that are a bit cloudy. I've even seen people agitating their Cooper's commercial ales in the bottle before pouring. Individual taste I guess.

What did really intrigue me was how clear the second glass got after just a few minutes standing. Quite remarkable.

Plus this last beer is a month younger than the other one but has better head retention i.e. HAS a head.

[Otto Von Blotto]

I don't worry about cloudy beer either, as long as it doesn't look like it was dredged up from the bottom of the river or something. I just find too much yeast in suspension changes the flavor of the beer and usually not in a good way because I don't like yeast derived flavors. I do prefer clear beer though, and I do clear my own beers but it's not so much yeast I'm dropping out as it drops out anyway, it's chill haze. Sometimes my beers are a bit hazy but they still taste good*. None of this stuff appears to affect the head retention though.

*I did have two batches of pilsner that were full of haze, one due to trying to do a full stepped mash and failing miserably and the other from forgetting to add Brewbrite to it on brew day. Both of these batches tasted off. Not infected or anything but just nothing like the beer should have tasted. It could have been the appearance affecting my perception of the beer, or it could have been the cause of the haze itself affecting the flavor, but either way they weren't anything like that beer normally tastes when everything goes properly.

[DonPolo]

Here's a conundrum that may shed some light on some of the flat beer issues (or not). 

I opened a bottle of a brew that had been in the bottle for a few months. It had been in the fridge for around three days. I thought it was a bit squishy as I took it out of the fridge. It is not uncommon for bottles to get less hard once they are refrigerated for some reason.

In the event, the beer didn't have much head but it was still showing some bubbles in the beer.

Then I noticed a difference in the screw top on this bottle compared to one I had rinsed the day before and was drying on the bench.

The top on the bench had a blue seal in it whereas the bottle I just opened had none (see dish photo). At first I thought that the seal may have gone missing during the washing process although I could not remember seeing any spare seals. I then checked on a few other bottles and all of them had no seals either.

I checked the bag of Cooper's screw tops I had bought from Big W and they all had the blue seal. I bought the tops because a friend had given me some bottles that came with his original kit that he didn't use. None of them had tops.

It appears that the bottles that came with the Craft Brew Kit that I have all do not have seals. Whether this was an oversight with this individual kit or whether that's the way they come I don't know. If the seals are important, then it could explain why the first brew done with the Mr Beer tin that came with the Craft Brew Kit was so disappointing as were random other brews.

I assume the seals are there for good reason. Without the seals, the only thing keeping the air out (or CO2 in) is black plastic on PET bottle neck. 

And by the way, I make SURE that every top is very securely screwed on, checking up to three times and using a tea towel to grip the tops.

The other thing I noticed is that the new tops (with or without seals) all have a ring that snaps off when you screw the top on for the first time. It stays there after you take the top off and removing it (if you want to, I don't) takes a fair amount of pressure. I don't know what its actual function is. Does anyone know (see photo of bottle neck and round plastic ring on the dish photo).

The last thing I noticed was that when I had rinsed out the bottle with the seal in the top, there was some water caught under the seal. That could pose a potential infection risk if not taken out and dried. I didn't notice any water under the seals of other bottles but I admit to not looking that hard before.

Any views, information?

[Gus96]

There are two types of plastic screw on caps, some have the plastic blue seal others have a moulded inner lip that sits inside the top of the pet bottle to seal. The ring that breaks off is purely for a tamper proof indication on commercial bottles and I think that all caps would come from the manufacturers as standard.,

[John304]

funny you should say that, the original caps that came with my craft fermenter don't have the blue seal and I had trouble with properly sealed bottles. I have just bought a hundred new caps from beerbelly, they have a grey seal inside, will try them next. The caps with blue seals I have bottled at least 20 brews with no issue

cheers,

John

[Otto Von Blotto]

The bottles going softer when chilled is nothing more than a pressure drop inside them from being chilled. Other than that, what the others said

[DonPolo]

2 hours ago, Gus96 said:

There are two types of plastic screw on caps, some have the plastic blue seal others have a moulded inner lip that sits inside the top of the pet bottle to seal. The ring that breaks off is purely for a tamper proof indication on commercial bottles and I think that all caps would come from the manufacturers as standard.,

Yes I see now. Interesting engineering solutions.

It appears that the tops without the seal also have a different configuration to fit into the thread of the bottles.

Still I'm inclined to think that the tops with seals would be better. 

 

[John304]

I had trouble with the one in the bottom pic, diced the lot, bottles always soft

[Worthog]

I always use new caps. I must have purchased 1500 coopers caps from BigW, but I have never come across the one with the blue insert. Interesting stuff.  Only ever had about 2 flat PETs over the journey - straight in the bin.

 

[Worts and all]

First comment,I find I have a mixture of both these tops. I have used them both multiple times. Both are fine if firmly fitted. Secondly, getting good carbonation and head has never been a problem with my kit and kilo and bits brews,with two exceptions. These were brewed in the depths of the notoriously temperate Tasmanian winter. Both tasted fine but were disappointingly flat. I lost interest and ignored them for several months. More recently,in frustration I inverted one,shook the bejiggery out of it,then sat it in a warm place. The yeast came to the party and carbonated it beautifully in a few days. Then in the fridge,coupla days,beautiful! I did the same with the rest of both brews with similar results. What have I learned? I suspect that the beer,bottled at ambient temperature (cool) ,when placed in what I thought was a sufficiently warm place,did not warm to yeast friendly temperature quickly enough before the yeast dropped to the bottom of the bottles. Once on the bottom, it is unable to mix in and party with the sugar. That’s my take on it anyway. I would welcome any comments. The good thing is I now have around 40 litres of delicious lager and stout that I had been inclined to throw out. You’ve got to love this brewing lurk! Cheers and happy brewing.

[Gus96]

As others mentioned the Coopers caps don't have the blue seal, the ones I get from my LHBS have them.

No issues with either yet.

[Worthog]

Yeah, your Tassie problem is low bottle temps, maybe. You need "constant and consistent" bottle conditioning temparatures above 18c unless you are conditioning lagers, where your low ambient temperatures would be fine.

Cheers

[porschemad911]

I have found that leaving the plastic ring on then adding a new cap (with its own tamper proof ring) can prevent the new cap screwing down completely. So I always cut those off before washing the bottle. 

Cheers, 

John 

[Worts and all]

11 hours ago, Worthog said:

Yeah, your Tassie problem is low bottle temps, maybe. You need "constant and consistent" bottle conditioning temparatures above 18c unless you are conditioning lagers, where your low ambient temperatures would be fine.

Cheers

The Tasmanian coastal climate,which I believe is officially called “a temperate maritime climate” ,is generally favourable for brewing. Often it is simply a matter of finding a good spot to sit the fermenter in any particular season. My problem with those brews was,I think,not getting the bottles up to 18 degrees quickly enough. Good to know the yeast remains viable for a long time though. A good shake up,reminding them of their obligations,a bit of warmth,and away they go! Cheers.

[DonPolo]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:53 PM, Gus96 said:

As others mentioned the Coopers caps don't have the blue seal, the ones I get from my LHBS have them.

No issues with either yet.

Fair enough but I swear the ones in the photos are out of a Coopers pack and I have just gone back to the pack to confirm.