Flat Beer

[DonPolo]

Could be because you're effectively brewing toucans. Your beers are probably somewhere around 6.5-7% ABV. 1 full 1.7kg kit plus 500g malt in 11 litres is more than 2 kits plus 1kg in 23 litres. You're likely ending up with higher FGs; a combination of a higher FG and higher ABV content makes it more difficult for the CO2 to absorb into the beer. The higher alcohol content may stress the yeast out a bit which might make it give up early although this is unlikely.

 

Try brewing a more standard strength beer and see what happens. A clue could be in the fact that the ginger beer was the only one with any real fizz.

 

I also need to pick up on the yeast pitching stuff. Obviously the OG affects the pitching rate' date=' but so does the batch volume. You wouldn't pitch 2 packets of dry yeast into a kit plus 500g malt in 23 litres so why would it be needed in 11 litres? Obviously the OG is a lot higher, but the amount of actual fermentable sugar hasn't changed.

[/quote']

OK, so let me try to understand this.. You're agreeing with DonPolo that his Kit Yeast should have done the job. Yep, understand the logic.

So the primary fermentation may not have stalled, so the secondary carbonation process may have failed due to the higher FG and ABV not allowing the carb drops to get the CO2 into the beer.

Would an extra carb drop have helped? Could he just wait longer for the bottles to carbonate with 2 drops, or are they done?

How would a person carbonate a high FG and ABV beer in a bottle, or does it need to be kegged, or what other process?

This is teaching me heaps, Kelsey. Thanks.

 

Cheers, Worthog.

 

So it seems that it comes down to reducing the fermentables maybe down to 250g of say LDM and seeing what happens. Still curious about how to carbonate a higher ABV brew if required.

 

My question about the Champagne carbonation is still bugging me though. As I said I guess it is different yeast.

 

Saw this quote on another site: "The one thing alcohol can do to affect carbonation is to tire out the yeast and make carbonation in the bottles take longer, however they will eventually get there."

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes and from the sounds of his FG readings it has done the job in the fermenter, so there shouldn't be any problems there. You wouldn't expect a brew like that to get much lower than 1.015.

 

CO2 is less soluble in higher viscosity liquid, in this case a higher FG beer. It's also less soluble in alcohol, so with there being more alcohol present this also affects the solubility of the CO2. The amount of CO2 produced from the fermentation of the priming sugar is still the same but it's likely that less of it is being absorbed into the beer, so it ends up being flatter. Adding more priming sugar may help but it also may risk blowing up the bottles. Storing them in the fridge longer before opening may help increase the absorption a bit as well.

 

I've experienced this twice with kegs. The first occasion was a 7% ABV stout whose FG was around 1.015-16. This keg sat on the same gas pressure as the other two kegs in the kegerator, which were lower ABV and lower FG beers. The stout was noticeably less carbonated than the other two beers, which was to my liking for the style so it worked out well in that case.

 

The other occasion was when I mixed up a keg of lemon, lime and bitters from 5 bottles of that Bickfords cordial and filled to 19L with water. Obviously no alcohol present but the SG of the mixture would have been high compared to finished beer, probably somewhere around the starting gravity for most batches. This keg sat on high pressure gas for over a week before it finally carbonated, so it was obvious to me that the CO2 had trouble absorbing as with beers they only need to be on high pressure for a day to carbonate. I tried the cordial after a day and it was still essentially flat. This was a pain in the arse, so I just use that keg for soda water now and mix the cordial with it in the glass.

 

Don, for your next batch I'd try using half a kit plus your usual 500g dry malt. If you like the bitterness you can use a more bitter kit like the IPA, or do a hop boil and add that to the brew. Using half a kit will bring the OG down to a more "standard" level, which will bring the ABV down and probably bring the FG down a bit too. See if that batch carbonates better than the ones with the full kit can added. When you bottle, scoop out some of the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter into a clean and sanitised jar, and use it to ferment the next batch with the second half of the kit.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

[DonPolo]

Yes and from the sounds of his FG readings it has done the job in the fermenter' date=' so there shouldn't be any problems there. You wouldn't expect a brew like that to get much lower than 1.015.

 

CO2 is less soluble in higher viscosity liquid, in this case a higher FG beer. It's also less soluble in alcohol, so with there being more alcohol present this also affects the solubility of the CO2. The amount of CO2 produced from the fermentation of the priming sugar is still the same but it's likely that less of it is being absorbed into the beer, so it ends up being flatter. Adding more priming sugar may help but it also may risk blowing up the bottles. Storing them in the fridge longer before opening may help increase the absorption a bit as well.

 

I've experienced this twice with kegs. The first occasion was a 7% ABV stout whose FG was around 1.015-16. This keg sat on the same gas pressure as the other two kegs in the kegerator, which were lower ABV and lower FG beers. The stout was noticeably less carbonated than the other two beers, which was to my liking for the style so it worked out well in that case.

 

The other occasion was when I mixed up a keg of lemon, lime and bitters from 5 bottles of that Bickfords cordial and filled to 19L with water. Obviously no alcohol present but the SG of the mixture would have been high compared to finished beer, probably somewhere around the starting gravity for most batches. This keg sat on high pressure gas for over a week before it finally carbonated, so it was obvious to me that the CO2 had trouble absorbing as with beers they only need to be on high pressure for a day to carbonate. I tried the cordial after a day and it was still essentially flat. This was a pain in the arse, so I just use that keg for soda water now and mix the cordial with it in the glass.

 

Don, for your next batch I'd try using half a kit plus your usual 500g dry malt. If you like the bitterness you can use a more bitter kit like the IPA, or do a hop boil and add that to the brew. Using half a kit will bring the OG down to a more "standard" level, which will bring the ABV down and probably bring the FG down a bit too. See if that batch carbonates better than the ones with the full kit can added. When you bottle, scoop out some of the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter into a clean and sanitised jar, and use it to ferment the next batch with the second half of the kit.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks Kelsey this is all good stuff. I have made up a batch with a half can before but I was worried a. how to measure half a can reasonably accurately without running into infection issues (I could I guess pour it into a sanitized vessel on a scale) b. how to store the second half of the can without infection (I remember being advised to mix the second half with water up to about 70 degrees just to be sure).

 

However, I will try the half can method and see what happens.

 

With the sediment, approximately how much do you need and where do you store the jar? In the fridge I guess. Do you have to bring it up to a certain temperature before pitching? I have seen references to using sediment before but didn't understand the methodology.

 

Lastly doing some more research I saw this post:

 

"1) Home-brewed malted beverages with a high ABV will benefit from adding fresh yeast at bottlin'time.

2) Carbonation can sometimes be improved by re-suspending the yeast. Grab a'hold a bottle by the top in one hand and its bottom in the other. Give the bottle a sharp twist a time or three as if you were replacing a light bulb."

 

Never heard of using yeast and bottling time and would not know how to do it. It sounds like a difficult and it could potentially lead to infection. The twisting method sounds a bit like what they do with Champagne bottles but I always thought that this was to get the yeast down to the neck so it can be frozen and gotten rid of.

 

I will say that I have started to notice that my high ABV beers are starting to pour better. Perhaps this reinforces that the carbonation doesn't stop it just takes longer for fewer yeast cells to do the job.

 

Interesting stuff.

[DonPolo]

Also saw this on another site:

 

"I made this handy chart a while back for determining the time it takes beer to properly carbonate and bottle condition. Hope this helps!:"

 

 

 

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

You can just cover the remainder of the tin with glad wrap and store it in the fridge. It should be fine for the 2-3 weeks it takes to ferment the batch made with the first half.

 

Take about one third of the yeast cake at the bottom along with some of the beer and store the jar in the fridge. The yeast will settle out under the beer. It doesn't need to be warmed up before pitching into the new batch, simply swirl the whole thing up and dump it in. I started using this cold pitching technique with my starters a couple of years ago and immediately noticed the lag times were just about cut in half.

 

I've only ever added fresh yeast at bottling time once and that was when I turned a batch into a slush puppie and wasn't sure if the existing yeast survived. I took that small amount of yeast from a starter from the next batch, it was just added to the bottling bucket when I transferred the beer for bulk priming. Probably not something that is entirely necessary in your case though. Re-suspending the yeast could be worth a try, certainly won't do any harm.

 

The carbonation doesn't stop as such, it's just harder for CO2 to dissolve in high ABV and higher FG beers. With that stout I mentioned in my last post, it reached a certain level and never got any more carbonated; the other two kegs did the same thing but their carbonation level was higher. All three kegs were sitting on the same gas pressure, so it stands to reason that the CO2 was more readily dissolved in the two lower ABV and FG beers than it was in the stout.

 

In the case of high ABV beers being naturally carbonated, it probably does take longer for the yeast to do their job due to the alcohol content. It doesn't kill them necessarily but it likely slows them down. At the same time, if you have a 3% beer with an FG of 1.005 compared to a 7% beer with an FG of 1.015, both dosed with equal amounts of priming sugar and given 6 weeks in the bottle, the lighter one will most likely be fizzier than the heavier one.

 

 

[Beerlust]

Ah yes' date=' the Maltodextrin debate.. I have purposely eliminated Maltodextrin from my brews due to the potential harmful health effects when too much is ingested. Your Maltodextrin suggestion really takes me back to BE2/3 fermentables.[/quote']

200 - 250gms spread over 23 litres would hardly put you in a bracket where "too much is ingested". Maltodextrin is a common inclusion in many protein/diet shakes as it makes for a good "filler" to stop you feeling hungry. The BE3 enhancer would actually be a good choice for you here.

Also Lusty' date=' my trimmed down ABV's are to make a high volume session beer for my summer drinking. I polish off 18 or so litres per week in summer so I need to watch the ABV and the "fillers" and blood sugar spikers like Maltodextrin.[/quote']

Noted. Then you probably need to make a choice. Will I brew & drink the equivalent of 2½ cartons of lower carb beers with no body or head retention a week in Summer, or will I brew slightly higher carb beers that have the head retention I seek?

The trade off is head retention and mouth-feel which I have been unsuccessfully trying to help with varying fermentables like Light Liquid Malt Extract.

Stick with the malt avenue. Dextrose & sugar ferment out completely & add nothing to flavour' date=' body or head retention &/or development. If the maltodextrin route isn't for you, then look into using grain steeps to add notable body to your beers. The crystal grains come in varying levels of sweetness & body adding levels. For less colour & sweetness, grains such as CaraPils, CaraFoam or CaraHell are what I'd recommend. You'll have to experiment a little to gauge how much of these grains is required to hit the targets you want, but it won't take long. [img']wink[/img]

I am also just starting to play with Hops but would assume early hopping would be preferable over dry hopping to raise FG a bit' date=' to get it back over the 1.010?

[img']unsure[/img]

Please don't confuse my poor explanation of how hops assist head retention with adding gravity points to a beer, because to the best of my knowledge they do not. As I mentioned, I don't fully understand the science but do understand the undertones of what I have read on the subject. I am currently experimenting with bittering areas of my beers relating to this particular area of beer making.

 

I hope some of that helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[Gag Halfrunt]

Also saw this on another site:

 

"I made this handy chart a while back for determining the time it takes beer to properly carbonate and bottle condition. Hope this helps!:"

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Mr Polo' date=' Most useful brewing chart ive seen to date[img']smile[/img]

[Worthog]

..If the maltodextrin route isn't for you' date=' then look into using grain steeps to add notable body to your beers. The crystal grains come in varying levels of sweetness & body adding levels. For less colour & sweetness, grains such as CaraPils, CaraFoam or CaraHell are what I'd recommend. You'll have to experiment a little to gauge how much of these grains is required to hit the targets you want, but it won't take long. [img']wink[/img]

 

I hope some of that helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.[/size]

 

Hi Lusty,

 

I will definitely be experimenting with the above grains you suggest and get my FG's above 1.010. I can always return some maltodextrin as a last resort afterwards.

Thanks for your help with this on all points.

 

Cheers, Warthog

[DonPolo]

Don' date=' for your next batch I'd try using half a kit plus your usual 500g dry malt. If you like the bitterness you can use a more bitter kit like the IPA, or do a hop boil and add that to the brew. Using half a kit will bring the OG down to a more "standard" level, which will bring the ABV down and probably bring the FG down a bit too. See if that batch carbonates better than the ones with the full kit can added. When you bottle, scoop out some of the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter into a clean and sanitised jar, and use it to ferment the next batch with the second half of the kit.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

[/quote']

 

Kelsey was just wondering, what about an opposite approach, i.e. use a whole can of say, Coopers Draft and use much less if no dry malt? Or does the can contribute mostly to the OG? Also are you thinking that the whole can will result in far too much bitterness?

 

I actually am on shaky ground here because I really don't understand the dynamics of the ingredients. I was guessing the fermentables like LDM contribute to the alcohol content and to some extent the body in comparison to just dextrose or sucrose. I also understand that the hop bitterness comes from the can ingredients which otherwise would have to be supplied by boiling hops. I guess the rest of the can is liquid malt extract. That's about it. I really don't understand why it is necessary to add the additional fermentables and why they just don't put more sugar/malt in the can (size of can?, price? personal taste?, sugars/malt can't dissolve in the liquid malt?).

 

I would have to say that the European lager and the real ale 'toucans' (to use your terminology) were actually quite good in a IPA sort of way. Mind you it could have been that my palate had just got used to something that others may find WAY too bitter. For example last night I opened a bottle of the lager. It actually was reasonably well carbonated, bitter and had some galaxy hop notes. Then I tried a bottle of Tui East India Pale Ale from New Zealand that is 4%. I wouldn't describe it as a classic IPA but after my earlier brew it tasted really bland.

 

Thanks very much for the detail on using the yeast deposit.

 

All part of the learning journey.

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

It's more a bitterness thing. The tins are designed to be brewed to around 20 odd litres, so if you go and halve the volume but still use a full tin you're effectively doubling the bitterness. It's probably not a problem with lowly bittered kits but the higher bittered kits I don't think would work that well.

 

You are right that the LDM contributes to the alcohol content, as does table sugar or dextrose. It also contributes to body and flavor. But so does the kit contents, being liquid malt extract. The only difference is that it's hopped, and liquid. I suspect they don't add the extras in with the kit because people want the option to brew light, mid and full strength beers, as well as the choice of using extra malt or just sugar or a mixture of both, grain steeps etc.. If you included a standard amount of fermentables with every kit, this option wouldn't exist.

 

I have to say that Tui IPA is rubbish by IPA standards. It's too weak in alcohol, and it has no hop presence at all.

[DonPolo]

It's more a bitterness thing. The tins are designed to be brewed to around 20 odd litres' date=' so if you go and halve the volume but still use a full tin you're effectively doubling the bitterness. It's probably not a problem with lowly bittered kits but the higher bittered kits I don't think would work that well.

 

You are right that the LDM contributes to the alcohol content, as does table sugar or dextrose. It also contributes to body and flavor. But so does the kit contents, being liquid malt extract. The only difference is that it's hopped, and liquid. I suspect they don't add the extras in with the kit because people want the option to brew light, mid and full strength beers, as well as the choice of using extra malt or just sugar or a mixture of both, grain steeps etc.. If you included a standard amount of fermentables with every kit, this option wouldn't exist.

 

I have to say that Tui IPA is rubbish by IPA standards. It's too weak in alcohol, and it has no hop presence at all. [/quote']

 

Thanks Kelsey, I think you have confirmed a few of my noob-type assumptions.

 

I agree with you about the Tui EIPA. I really seemed to taste the same as a standard megaswill. But I was worried it was because of its comparison to my stronger home brew.

 

Problem is now I still have another 11 to get through. There might be a few carbonnade beef stews coming up using the Tui as a stock!

[DonPolo]

OK, did the half can of Coopers Draft with the 500g LDM, Centennial and Cascade dry hopped.

 

Bottled 14/1/2018.

 

First bottle that was in the Fridge for 24 hours - still not the head retention you would expect of a 'normal beer'.

 

Also another interesting phenomenon: The first glass from the 740ml bottle was flattish and it really did have a kind of 'home brew' taste about it.

 

The second glass had a slightly better head retention and a more floral aroma, tasting more like some of the 'craft beers' around. But it lost it's head pretty quickly.

 

I think part of the phenomenon was that my fridge could have been very cold (I think my daughter turned it colder when I was away). As it warmed up a bit the head and the flavour/aroma improved accordingly.

 

I tried one of my higher ABV Real Ales (approx 7%) last night and had the same experience; second glass better than the first but still not the bubbly beverage I was going for.

 

Discouraging my daughter's boy friend gave me some Australia Pale Ale he made. Lovely fluffy head, good mouthfeel. I'll need to check the exact details but I think he just used a kit and Brew enhancer 1 or 2. Admittedly not as 'crafty' a taste as mine but more like beer than the 'somewhat bubbly malt beverage' that I seem to keep getting.

 

I will be interesting to see how the other half of the can goes with the same ingredients but with the yeast I recovered from the brew with the first half of the can.

[DonPolo]

Had a mystery last night that I thought someone could help me with. I poured a beer from a commercial craft brewery into my perc-cleaned beer glass and noticed a very good head and quite large bubbles in the beers itself.

 

"Oh", I thought, "this is the sort of carbonation that I should be seeing in my own beer".

 

Then I tasted it and hmmmm, I bit of a surprise. The slightly Caramalt quality and hoppy aromas I had noticed from the beer before had disappeared.

 

It tasted really dry and not much above what a glass of soda water would have tasted like.

 

Then it might have been my imagination but for a while after I had this tingling sensation in my mouth.

 

My immediate reaction was "you idiot, you must not have rinsed the glass well enough after you soaked it in perc solution overnight". This is still probably the best explanation.

 

I didn't drink another bottle of the beer so I have nothing to compare it with at this stage except my previous tasting.

 

But it did bring up the question, if you have soaked something in a perc solution, how much or what type of rinsing should you do? I know that when you get some of the solution on your hands it is somewhat slippery to the touch so the chances are that it would adhere to surfaces more than some other solutions.

 

Does it need hot water and a wipe down or brush or something?

 

It could have been a dud bottle but I doubt it.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Hot tap water will easily get rid of it, but the residue tastes salty if there is any left behind. I tasted a tiny bit of water that had had it dissolved in it overnight and it was a bit salty as well.

[DonPolo]

Hot tap water will easily get rid of it' date=' but the residue tastes salty if there is any left behind. I tasted a tiny bit of water that had had it dissolved in it overnight and it was a bit salty as well. [/quote']

 

Yep I think you could describe the taste as salty. So I think you've nailed it.

 

Better rinsing in future for sure!

 

Perfect glasses now. Made sure I rinsed in hot water 3 times and a bit of a rub with a paper towel after the second rinse.

 

Most recent yeast cake fermented OS lager with dry hops had lacing to die for!

[Otto Von Blotto]

I normally rinse the glasses 3 times in hot tap water after giving the rims a bit of a rub to get rid of any residue that may be present. Haven't had any issues with salty flavors or whatnot.

 

The percarbonate is actually a mixture of 3 different chemicals, or at least the one I have is. The vast majority of it is percarbonate of course (88%), with the remainder being made up of sodium carbonate (washing soda), and sodium chloride (which would be responsible for the salty flavor). Once fully dissolved all that's left is salty water containing some sodium carbonate and some oxygen.

[Malter White]

This is a great thread. A lot of helpful information. I've been having similar problems with head retention. Thanks to all that have contributed here. I'm confident my brews will improve from here on, now that I'm armed with your knowledge. Cheers!

[Paddybrew]

I treated myself yesterday and bought myself 8 tins of craft brew, ranging from Pirate Life IPA to Cheeky Monkey IPA to Feral Warhog plus a few more.

I have those fancy craft beer glasses too. The head retention i noticed was pretty poor on a few but the taste was out of this world.

I dont worry too much about the aesthetics of how it appears in a glass. as long as it hits the spot and makes you want more is all that matters

 

 

[therealthing691]

I treated myself yesterday and bought myself 8 tins of craft brew' date=' ranging from Pirate Life IPA to Cheeky Monkey IPA to Feral Warhog plus a few more.

I have those fancy craft beer glasses too. The head retention i noticed was pretty poor on a few but the taste was out of this world.

I dont worry too much about the aesthetics of how it appears in a glass. as long as it hits the spot and makes you want more is all that matters

 

[/quote']

 

 

That's whats its all about IMHO i made a Citra based black Ipa it looked cloudy and a bit like swamp water but it was a very tasty brew didn't last long at all

[DonPolo]

I treated myself yesterday and bought myself 8 tins of craft brew' date=' ranging from Pirate Life IPA to Cheeky Monkey IPA to Feral Warhog plus a few more.

I have those fancy craft beer glasses too. The head retention i noticed was pretty poor on a few but the taste was out of this world.

I dont worry too much about the aesthetics of how it appears in a glass. as long as it hits the spot and makes you want more is all that matters

 

[/quote']

 

 

That's whats its all about IMHO i made a Citra based black Ipa it looked cloudy and a bit like swamp water but it was a very tasty brew didn't last long at all

 

I'm now just resigned to the fact that my brews will just have to taste good and be done with it.

 

It looks like unless you have a brew fridge, can cold crash, keg and all those things, and you carbonate in the bottle you can forget about having the head that some beers display.

 

Yesterday bought a pint of Trail Pale Ale at the Capital Brewery Brewhaus and it came with a fluffy dense head that stayed in the glass all the way to the end and I took my time to savour it over about 20 minutes.

 

By contrast in the evening I opened a PET of my 'Draught' dry hopped with Citra and Centennial hops. The head disappeared pretty quickly but there were bubbles rising through the glass for a fair time. Tasted OK, reasonable hop aroma, maybe a little bit sweeter that I would have thought.

 

Anyway onward and upward!

[porschemad911]

DonPolo, you don't need a brew fridge, to cold crash or to keg to get beer that looks good and has nice foam.

 

I find my all grain beers have great foam and I don't do any of the things listed. I use kettle finings and time for clarity and nothing in particular to aid foam. Probably the best foam I have had was on an American IPA I made with WLP002 and lots of hops (which are very foam positive).

 

The foam is not quite as good on my kit beers, but still fine. The clarity is great on the kit beers though, Coopers do a great job on their kettle finings.

 

Cheers,

 

John

[Worthog]

OK, realistically the Coopers "kits and bits" beers are not really performing head retention wise. I mean, when you pour, you get the lovely head, and too much if you don't poor to the conditions. All glasses washed to spec; Alkaline Salts, bottle brush and good rinse, then chilled maybe.

 

In particular if you are drinking outside, but also inside the house, you begin with a head, and it gradually dissipates until, in most cases, the beer looks dead and not much evidence of bubbles, however small. But it isn't dead, because if you swirl the glass slightly, the head forms up again.

 

I brew all my batches now with liquid malt extract and malt grain; carafoam, carahell and all, to try for some head retention. Bottled 4 weeks. Flavour good, pouring foam good. Longevity bad.

 

I get a better result and some "lacing" from glass bottles than pets, but even so, I'm wondering whether the "2 carbonation drops per 750ml" is the right specification. Is that spec on the low side to reduce bottle bombs? Would a bigger "bubble" pump the head?

 

Can I go 2.5 lollies in a 750ml bottle with a view to better head pump during the drinking phase? Will this help? Or am I seeking Utopia, given most people drink stubbies and would not give a "fig" for head and that is the beer style we backyard beer mechanics brew nowadays?

 

Cheers,

[Otto Von Blotto]

Head retention isn't really related to or influenced by the carbonation level. It's all about what's in the beer. Coca-Cola is way more fizzy than beer but its foam never hangs around for more than a few seconds after pouring, because there's nothing in it that helps the foam stick around. On the other hand you can get excellent head retention in lowly carbonated beers.

 

I'd agree with John that cold crashing and kegging aren't the answer to head retention. You often find beers with a lot of late/dry hops have really good head retention, such as the IPA mentioned.

 

There are also certain proteins that aid in it as well. I do a mash rest at 72C for glycoproteins which are apparently good for head retention; I have noticed beers that have incorporated this rest have had decent retention, whatever the recipe, compared to beers that didn't use this rest. Obviously not possible with kit beers though.

[Worthog]

.... You often find beers with a lot of late/dry hops have really good head retention' date=' such as the IPA mentioned.[/i']

 

There are also certain proteins that aid in it as well. I do a mash rest at 72C for glycoproteins which are apparently good for head retention; I have noticed beers that have incorporated this rest have had decent retention, whatever the recipe, compared to beers that didn't use this rest. Obviously not possible with kit beers though.

 

So I should 'commando' 40g of Cascade into the wort just prior to cold crash to get head retention? I hope so because that is what I have been doing lately (not tasted yet). Not possible with "kits & bits though?

 

Cheers,

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Of course you can add late and dry hops to a kit beer. I was referring to a 72C mash rest not being possible with kit beers, unless instead of using dry or liquid malt to go with the kit, you mash 2-2.5kg of grain, i.e. doing a partial mash brew.