BlackSands Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I made the transition to partial mash brewing last year after brewing an extract version of an Irish Red and then replicating the same beer using as a PM with a 60% grain base . After some careful A/B tastings I decided the PM version was a tad cleaner and fresher tasting. Since then all my brews have been partials, using around 60% grain. Recently I decided to use my PM gear to brew an AG APA - half a batch, mostly just to settle in my own mind whether AG was noticeably better than my PM beers. I brewed the beer using Gladfields ale and munich malts with a selection of NZ hops - similar to a PM version brewed a while back. It's 2 weeks in the bottle today - a bit young perhaps but being a hoppy APA I don't want to miss out on all the hoppy goodness so I'm getting stuck in a.s.a.p! It's a stunner of a beer I have to say, and perhaps the best pale ale I've brewed so far, though I know it's easy to be seduced by the young fresh hop flavours and aromas at this early stage, which I know will invariably fade in the coming weeks. I'm not really able to make a call on this - I'm not convinced it's any better than my PM brews in terms of general fresh/clean flavours. If there's a difference... I'm thinking it's pretty darn subtle. The only way I could really be totally convinced I suspect is to do as I did with extract vs partial, and actually brew the same beer using both processes and then do direct A/B comparisons. So whilst a beautiful ale, I really can't in all honesty claim that this AG is noticeably better than my PM's. One thing that seems to be noticeably different though is teh chill haze - this one seems a lot more hazy. Anyway, given it's the same amount of effort for only half the quantity it's unlikely I'll repeat the exercise any time soon but regardless, I'm certainly glad a brewed this one! I think what I'll do is perhaps replicate this exact recipe as a partial and see if I'm as equally pleased with the result. Meanwhile, I'm gonna crack open another bottle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PXR-5 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Interesting observations, BlackSands. I'm at a bit of a loss to figure out how AG can be fresher, although everyone that brews AG uses the same word to describe it ("Fresh"). I don't understand what the concept of fresh is, but my conjecture is that it is just the absence of base bittering (or even POR hops). I'm sure a lot of people will disagree. I'm about 3 moths away from being able to brew a fully AG batch (and have designs on paper and some of the equipment I want), although I have brewed a few partials. The difference between what you do (from watching your video - quite good info, btw) is that I don't use a can. I use grain and have used either DME or LME in addition to the grain, so all the bittering is under my control. I couldn't discern any extra "freshness" in what I did (although all the batches I did were nice to drink). I expected to gather some insight into what "freshness" is through that, but couldn't. Anyway, keep us informed with what you do. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan8 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Yet another cracking thread. Quality over last couple days has been exceptional. Having been for most of my brewing life a kk brewer i recently moved to ag and skipped the partials. However last week i did a partial as was trying to set up my new grain mill. Will be intersted to see how this one turns out compared to the kk version. In the past when i switched a recipe around i would make a second batch at recipe to try and sample if the change i made was any good. Typical example was coopers IPA straight recipe to 2 other batches dry hopping at 50 and 100g mosaic. I was less busy back then though so not able to continue the experiments. BTW both dry hopped beers turned out fine however the 100 was a little too bitter for me, and the citrus tree i poured the remaining one or 2 litres on as it turned it toes up some days after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Where would we be without you providing us with interesting topics BlackSands? Thanks. Congratulations on a delicious brew, but you have run into the same issue as Brulosophy: he likes to run experiments, but he also likes to drink hoppy, young beer, which is not the best base for doing side-by-side comparisons. Unfortunately a malty, boring recipe, left to age 6-8 weeks, would be better. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 10 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I have drunk a few of Lusty's partials and extracts and these have been as bright and tasty as my all grain based beers. I think it comes down to the recipe and the brewer's dedication to cleanliness and good fermentation practices. I don't know about this fresher thing but I do like the total control over recipe design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 I don't know about this fresher thing... I expected to gather some insight into what “freshness” is through that' date=' but couldn't.[/quote']I guess the terms 'fresh' and 'clean' are somewhat subjective and the only reason I became aware of what I believe people are referring to was when I was able to do a direct A/B between extract and PM. These things are often hard to describe, particularly as they are so very often on the edge of human perception! As mentioned I had to repeatedly A/B my two samples before it eventually became apparent that the PM version was a tad 'cleaner' than the extract. And at the time, because it was such a small thing I initially thought I wouldn't bother with PM for maltier beers, as I don't think the extract character is necessarily out of place in malt forward beers anyway. I suspect the 'clean' and 'fresh' aspect of grain is probably more apparent in lighter brews. Where would we be without you providing us with interesting topics BlackSands? Thanks. Congratulations on a delicious brew' date=' but you have run into the same issue as Brulosophy: he likes to run experiments, but he also likes to drink hoppy, young beer, which is not the best base for doing side-by-side comparisons.[/quote']Seems perfectly valid given I also drink my partial mash versions young and hoppy too In fact old APA's are a disappointment in comparison! But there is no side by side comparison actually happening here. But rather, just my general impressions of this beer compared to many PM brews, most of which get first sampled when young too. And, given that it would probably be an unfair comparison if I did let this one age! I'm very familiar with the general taste of my PM's and this one doesn't really stand out as being any different an any obvious way. And as mentioned, I believe it really would take a direct A/B to spot any difference. One interesting thing I have noted is the taste of the wort. I didn't really pick any notable difference with this to to my PM's but after a later sampling my impressions of the taste was that it probably was more 'grainy' and less 'caramelly'. However I've had PM worts that have also tasted quite grainy, distinctly different to full extract wort, and yet others like my recent brown for example where the wort tasted just like an extract wort. Possibly specialty malts combined with the extract component mask the fresh grain flavours to some extent? - dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Where would we be without you providing us with interesting topics BlackSands? Thanks. Congratulations on a delicious brew' date=' but you have run into the same issue as Brulosophy: he likes to run experiments, but he also likes to drink hoppy, young beer, which is not the best base for doing side-by-side comparisons. [img']lol[/img] Unfortunately a malty, boring recipe, left to age 6-8 weeks, would be better. Cheers, Christina. Yep - I like to think that big hops can cover a multitude of sins...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Yep - I like to think that big hops can cover a multitude of sins......First time I've heard AG referred to as a sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrie Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Yep - I like to think that big hops can cover a multitude of sins......First time I've heard AG referred to as a sin. The comment wasn't made specifically about AG, BlackSands. That is not what I wrote at all. It was intended to explain that a lot of hops can cover up some mistakes and bad practices be it AG, extract, kit, PM or whatever. Even some of those that Brulosophy make. I think that is what Christina was basically saying in her post that I quoted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I suppose people comment on AG brews as being fresher because technically they are. You mash the grains to get the wort, boil it etc. and then ferment it pretty well straight away, whereas with extract that's all done then it's concentrated down into a thick syrup and stored in a can for varying periods of time, probably under crappy conditions for part of that time, before being diluted back down with water again and being fermented. It is probably subjective to a point, but the difference was stark for me when I tasted my first AG batch compared to the extract batches I'd done previous to it. To me, the AG batch tasted like something I'd buy on tap in a bar, whereas the extract beers tasted lesser than that; they weren't bad but they weren't brilliant either. It's a bit like a cup of coffee made from freshly roasted and ground coffee beans compared to one made from instant coffee. They're both nice but the difference is noticeable. That said, a well brewed extract beer will be better than a poorly brewed AG beer, so it's not automatically gonna improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porschemad911 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Having brewed quite a few kit brews, then a few partial mashes, then quite a few all-grain batches, and now having moved back to kit brews for the foreseeable futures, I can't help but comment. I found my partial mash brews to have a slight lift and extra dimension to the malt flavour over my early kit brews. I found my all-grain brews to have a slighly enhanced malt flavour again over the partial mash brews. And yes, a perception of additional 'life' to the flavour which could be described as 'freshness'. However, I was (and still am) learning to craft better recipes over that period and have never compared a kit / partial mash / all-grain version of the same beer, and changed equipment and process many times, so there were many confounding variables. Now having gone back to kit brews, I feared I might be disappointed with the results, but I'm not. Possibly because, well, 'more hops solves everything! ', but more likely because the people at Coopers who produce the kits and extracts really know what they're doing. And also more likely because I'm just glad to still be able to create beer that I enjoy, with a much-changed perspective. One thing I will say, my worst beers were kit brews with specialty grains added that weren't needed. My all-grain brews with unneeded specialty grains were pretty much just as bad. So the recipe is important, and it's better to let a few key notes sing than to muddle things. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Well done blacksands... Although I have to agree with BIG BEN on this in justice for extract.... Also as an all grain brewer myself yet being an experienced extract brewer in the past I have to say that extract beer can still be amazing! Doing extract with or without steeped grains can be great if done effectively... English Bitter KIt alone with 1kg light dry malt makes a trusty simple brew! yet I cant forget a basic extract 10 litre litre batch that I made that was so nice it was so simple too! It was a basic stove top brew using Light Dry Malt extract and just Centennial hops.... the hops where in the boil 60min, 10 min, whirlpool flame out and then dry hopped......... it kicked arse! Allgrain can be said to be fresher and I believe it is! and its most fresh when the wort is chilled as quickly as possible after whirlpool and in fermenter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Hey Blacksands, thanks for sharing the results of your first foray into all-grain brewing. I agree with a lot of the comments on here. I've brewed a couple of kit beers that I was very happy with, thanks Coopers for the base ingredients. Late last year a couple of my extract brews were phenomenal and took the hat for the "best I've brewed". Good ingredients, good technique, etc as per PC'S beer triangle did produce some really yummy pale ales to drink around Christmas. Then all-grain. I think Kelsey nailed it with the description that I would be happy to buy my all-grain from the pub (Or craft beer bottle-o). Friends are not always the best test of beer, as they are usually overly positive even when small faults exist. But my all-grain beers the same guys have said to me "wow, this is good, you could sell this". Never got those sort of comments for my extract brews. As you know I'm still dabbling in extract and PM'S as I have some ingredients left over. It's nice to be able to taste AG and pm side by side (albeit slightly diff recipes of a palw ale) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Its all about the finished product! Ive had both an extract beer and a partial mash brew take first prize against allgrain brewers! With the extract being a lager! I am in beer clubs and enter beer in competitions this means you need to nail the style down pat if you enter a particular style It makes you wonder how good the opposition was on the day but still! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Yup, at the end of the day, regardless of how you get there, if you're making great beer that you and friends enjoy and beer that also stands up against the rest then, job well done! One thing I will say' date=' my worst beers were kit brews with specialty grains added that weren't needed. My all-grain brews with unneeded specialty grains were pretty much just as bad. So the recipe is important, and it's better to let a few key notes sing than to muddle things.[/quote']I have to agree with this. It's taken me a while to get there but I realise now that simplifying and keeping the specialty grains to a minimum is now producing beer that I'm certainly liking more. I did discover back when I was brewing Kit +LME that cans like the Coopers Real Ale for example really didn't need any extra malt. It's pretty full-flavoured straight out of the can. When I was a relative noob I'd often looked at complex grain bills and would be in awe of their complexity. Same with hop schedules actually. But now, the K.I.S.S. principal is the prevailing philosophy for me. This AG APA has no specialty grains, just pale malt and a generous dose of munich malt. I first tried this combo with a similar PM brew and became convinced then that less could in fact be more. I then reworked an amber/red ale recipe, dialing back on the specialty grains, and again discovered a beer that was now much more to my liking. I've just bottled a brown where I did a similar thing, reduced the specialty grain percentages and it too tasted very promising on bottling day. I guess I will know for sure in a few weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 This is a great thread for me as I move towards AG. I just put down my second partial yesterday, with a bigger portion of grain to my first - went with 3.5 Kg of malt & 1 can of light liquid malt. My first partial with only 1kg of grain was better than any all extract brews that I have done, but as my recipes vary so wildly it could be so many things contributing. One question I have for the legends here is how do you get that light yellow-straw colour into my APA's? Most of brews so far have been a light amber-brown… but some of my favourite beers have a really light straw colour which I quite like. I am one or two big pots away from my first crack at AG, but it doesn't seem so daunting now after a couple of partials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 This is a great thread for me as I move towards AG. One question I have for the legends here is how do you get that light yellow-straw colour into my APA's? Most of brews so far have been a light amber-brown… but some of my favourite beers have a really light straw colour which I quite like. . What are you using for your LME component ? There are some light coloured extracts available lightest being Briess Pilsen Light Liquid Extract that's very pale . It'll also depend on what base and spec malts you add for the mash component Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 What are you using for your LME component ? There are some light coloured extracts available lightest being Briess Pilsen Light Liquid Extract that's very pale . It'll also depend on what base and spec malts you add for the mash component The grain I have been using is gladfields american pale I think… I have tried a few LME, black rock light & ultra light… coopers light… and the dry malt I have used is from mangrove jack. I'm just in the process of using up most of my last extract and kit ingredients before I go AG so would be interested in which grains give that straw colour for an APA or low ABV IPA. The gladfields pale looked pretty dark after my mash yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Pretty much any pale malt used as 100% of the malt bill will give that pale straw color. I made a Maris Otter+Centennial SMASH brew a couple of years ago which came out like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joolbag Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Hi dragit I've used a few of the LME on the market and I think it is really difficult to get that pale straw colour using LME. IIRC, the process of concentrating the LME down to 1.5kg darkens the extract. I tried the lightest Briess Pilsen LME and while lighter, was not pale straw. Actually thinking back, the lightest colour beer I ever brewed was using the Coopers Canadian Blonde as a base. It was the recipe for Helga's Cool Kolsch which has 500g DME and 500g BE2. Was surprised how light this brew came out actually. Maybe the Pilsen DME might get you there, I haven't yet experimented. You will be able to get that light colour beer (if it really matters to you) when you go all-grain, but you knew that already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Black Rock do an Ultra Light LME (EBC=5). I wonder if that combined with Gladfield American Ale Malt (EBC=5) would get you close to the colour you're after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 You will be able to get that light colour beer (if it really matters to you) when you go all-grain' date=' but you knew that already! [/quote']I actually didn't know that yet as I haven't done an AG batch! The colour is obviously one of the least important things, but I was curious… I think I have good association from a couple of my beers that I like… Thanks everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Hey Blacksands, thats interesting with your thought on the AG brew. I do AG because, 1. I can; and 2. Because I like the process and the extra element it ads to my hobby. Whether it's better than a partial... I dont know... I do know partial's can be awesome beers. If you're happy with your results, brew on!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSands Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 I do AG because' date=' 1. I can; and 2. Because I like the process and the extra element it ads to my hobby. [/quote']I can't argue with that! One of the reasons why I choose do partials over extract is for the same reasons as you mention: I can, I have the time and I like the process... it just feels more like brewing I guess. And similarly, if I could, I probably would do AG - after all, the time and effort required is similar, it's just that the equipment and volumes etc involved tend to take it away from being a simple kitchen/stove top activity into something more substantial, and a larger scale brewing setup I can't easily accommodate where I live. And I guess the point of this little exercise really was so I could determine to my own satisfaction if I was missing out on anything. Based on this one 1/2 batch trial I feel reasonably reassured that my PM's are pretty much on a par and I suspect it really would take some close A/B scrutiny to distinguish the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I also agree with Wotto's comment. Apart from the improved flavor of the beer and the absolute freedom and control with recipe design, it is the process itself that I really do enjoy about brewing AG. It does feel more like brewing because it is actually brewing, as opposed to simply mixing up goo cans in water. My brewing set up itself doesn't take up a whole lot of room being BIAB in an urn. The urn and all the salts and other stuff all sit neatly together on a 3 shelf trolley about 1m long and 350-400mm wide. It's the malts and the cubes that take up more room, as well as my hops having a dedicated drawer in the freezer that sits next to my brewing area. Dunno what I'm gonna do with the hops when we move though... maybe they'll have to stay where they are here and I can just come and get what I need a couple of days before a brew day or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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