Phoenix76 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Well Gentlemen, I will now bow out. This topic, as I feared from the start is now getting personal. And that is contrary to everything I have been trying to say. Unfortunately some people cannot help but attack the person. The person who has a different view. Jeremy, when you state that there are things that we should not disagree on, you are only demonstrating your own desire that we all should think the same way as yourself. Gentlemen, cheers, I will take no further involvement in this thread. It is starting to bring out to much personal animosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I don't really buy Coopers products anyway so this won't change that for me. I don't agree with supporting any religious groups though, to me they are just holding humanity back. Look at all this BS with the marriage stuff, the only reason it hasn't been passed is because of the bloody church. They should have absolutely no say or influence in any legislation, because if a law is influenced by a certain religion then it will often favour people of that religion to the detriment of everybody else and that's unfair in every sense of the word. They think same sex marriage is gonna make a mockery of marriage, no. People all over the country who are genuinely in love and can't be married because of some bronze age bullshit, while other people are free to get married to someone they met 5 minutes ago simply because they have different bits. THAT is making a mockery of marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph1malph Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Hi All, I generally don't contribute to religious or political posts but am often reminded of something a British friend said to me years ago and that I believe rings very true. In short how passionate does someone have to be at something before they or the passion are considered 'religious'? He was specifically talking about soccer (football over the water). Here's some quotes from the interwebs: Thousands of people congregate in large Cathedral-like buildings. They sing their songs and anthems. Banners are unfurled, white flags with red crosses flutter in the breeze. The worship begins as the players run onto the field of play at the start of the match Many more people attend football matches than church and I would argue that there are as many football fanatics with home shrines as there are religious fanatics with home shrines! Football meets many of the 'defining' rites of a religion. Here in Australia, if you are born into a Collingwood or South Sydney family, you are not permitted (?) to follow another team. Significant family events are planned around the 'worship' schedule of your team. Finally, who hasn't met that fervent die hard football nutter that no matter what, will always sprout good things and the greatness of his religious club affiliation...no matter how undeniably bad they are... Sound familiar? So, in finishing...it's footy season, which has a lot in common with orthodox religions. BTW, I'm a Jedi, so I need nothing but the force. Jus' sayin'! Cheers Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 There's a difference though, while following a footy team or any other sports team might have some crossovers with religious groups, it isn't based around some ancient fairy tale, and it doesn't have influence over legislation. Organised religion supposedly has no influence over legislation either but it's pretty clear that it does, otherwise the same sex marriage thing would have been over and done with (made legal) almost as soon as the idea came about, but instead they're still debating it because some idiotic church group disagrees with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frangipani Annie Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Bummer there's no "like" button on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph1malph Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 There's a difference though' date=' while following a footy team or any other sports team might have some crossovers with religious groups, it isn't based around some ancient fairy tale, and it doesn't have influence over legislation. Organised religion supposedly has no influence over legislation either but it's pretty clear that it does, otherwise the same sex marriage thing would have been over and done with (made legal) almost as soon as the idea came about, but instead they're still debating it because some idiotic church group disagrees with it.[/quote'] You are right of course Mr Blotto. Although AFL did influence and convince the Vic Guvmint to have a public holiday before the grand final! Cheers Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Live and let live. Wise words indeed Bill. That's all there is to it End of the day: a company can choose to do as they please. Who are we to argue? And why would we? There's always other brewers who might have the same beliefs in common you feel comfortable buying from I guess (if that really matters). Just stop fighting things and enjoy life. It's far too short to focus on petty things that don't matter Hi Corksniffer, my friend. I mean this in the best way possible but I beg to differ. Because of where I live, I was able to marry the woman I love 14 years ago, and it made all the difference. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and experienced firsthand this insistence by members of my family to have their oppressive values respected because they were faith based. It is ridiculous to feel that because your idea of how you'd like to live your life is based on faith that it is okay force your preferences other people. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oor Wullie Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I believe in God and if a company chooses to support a Christian organisation then that is great. I say good for you Coopers, well done. Am I of Christian faith? I suppose I am in a way. I believe Jesus to be a great man that wanted to preach Love to everyone. If everyone else loved one another then the world would be a better place, right? At risk of sounding hypocritical, I do not believe in a "religion". I think Christianity that is practised today is not done in the way Jesus would have intended it to be. I don't even think he would have liked the term "Christianity" as he was a Jew seeking to be the King of Israel. The Holy Bible as we know it was determined at the Council of Nicaea around about 300 AD. This was when Emperor Constantine and his bishops decided what we could and could not read in regard to Christianity, and destroyed many books of the "original" bible. Religion was created to control the masses by putting the fear of God into them. Whether that religion is Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu or whatever, it was a means of control. Anyhow, Sunday sermon over! Just everyone Love one another, no matter what you believe in. Lets get on and be good, take the time tomorrow to do something good to someone and make the world a happier place. With Love and Best wishes, Oor Wullie. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 It's also a ridiculous notion that we supposedly must respect others' beliefs. No we must not. We only must respect one's right to hold a belief but the belief itself is as open to ridicule and criticism as much as it is to respect and adulation. I don't hold any respect for beliefs based on faith in magical sky daddies when they are resulting in a part of society being denied the same rights as everybody else. Why would I respect that garbage? Why would anyone with an ounce of decency respect that garbage? Granted it's mainly the fundamentalist nutters behind it, which is a minority, but it doesn't matter. The point is they are backwards and their beliefs are ridiculous. We are not in the dark ages any more but that lot seems to want to be stuck there forever. What gives them the right to think they can force everybody else to live by their rules? Some try to argue that making same sex marriage legal is forcing it on everybody, but it's a baseless argument. It's not forcing it on anybody any more than hetero marriage is forced on us. Do they feel like hetero marriage is forced on them? I would guess not, so what's the difference, and why do they care so much about what two loving people are doing in their own lives that is not affecting them in any way at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oor Wullie Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I do not agree with same sex marriage in a church or any other religious building whatsoever. Why would the couple involved want it sanctified by a God that explicitly states that it is forbidden? Ok, the bible is forged, but still why would they want to do that? If I were gay, and religious, I would like to think that I had some sense to realise that the whole sanctity of marriage in a church would be false. Why would I want to take my vows to the partner I love in a place that holds a book which forbids it? Wouldn't that in itself be strange? Go forth and multiply. With respect, that cannot happen with same sex couples. OK, artificial insemination can work but both sexes rely on one another to make the offspring. It is impossible otherwise. Look at Mother Nature, which I like to think of as my God. Cows need Bulls, Bitches need Dogs, Hens need Cocks, Cannabis seeds need Male and Female too. Nature is the way it is and we cannot change it, no matter how hard we try. Nature needs to reproduce and same sex marriages cannot do that. Sorry but that is the way it is. Any problems then ask your God or creator or whoever made you. Still, Love to everyone. Oor Wullie. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I do not agree with same sex marriage in a church or any other religious building whatsoever. Why would the couple involved want it sanctified by a God that explicitly states that it is forbidden? Ok' date=' the bible is forged, but still why would they want to do that?[/quote'] They wouldn't really care whether it was recognised by a church. It is recognition at law which is the issue. People just need to stop worrying about harmless things that other people do and focus on themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy-o Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Why would the couple involved want it sanctified by a God that explicitly states that it is forbidden? Ok' date=' the bible is forged, but still why would they want to do that?[/quote'] You seem to have a pretty unique system of beliefs. You believe in Jesus, but "Mother Nature" is your God? You don't have religion, but you believe an ancient council censored some vital holy manuscripts? Frankly, a lot of people believe a lot of things and for a lot of different reasons. That's fine. To a gay person, maybe marriage means something legal, maybe it's an excuse for the dream party, maybe it's a sense of acceptance from society. Or even, yes, acceptance from their God. But what they believe, whatever is is, is not for you to decide. Why should it be? And no, nature gives us no prerogative to follow its flawed path. If it did, we'd still be dying of minor infections. And our hops would be crap. And I wouldn't have a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Mostly I come to this forum to discuss my hobby, home brewing. I am a practising Catholic and as best I can I don't try and impart my beliefs onto anyone on this forum. Indeed I am far from perfect and my behaviour on this forum at times belies my own faith - but I am human. However to me it seems that others who are non religious have no issue with imparting their beliefs onto this forum at all and do so in a forceful and aggressive manner. I said in my initial post, #3,that the point of the Coopers & Bible Society exercise had been missed and would continue to be missed. I watched the video, a labour politician wishing to marry his gay partner discussing gay marriage with a conservative Christian. A respectful conversation at the end of which the facilitator asked each participant to restate the other persons argument. This was done in a respectful way and the aim of this whole process is to get people to actually listen to each other, to see things from the other person's perspective. . This is not a campaign against same sex marriage - The Bible Society is not a religion nor is it funded or supported by one single denomination. There aim is to get people to read a historical collection of books that offers teachings that have never been superseded e.g. Treat others the way you expect to be treated. Obviously this collection of books cannot be separated from God. The evidence that the Bible (in particular the new testament) is historical fact is irrefutable it has been tested by literary scholars and verified in the writings of Roman and Greek historians. I have no desire to debate same sex marriage here or anywhere else, I don't have ill feelings towards those who express there opposition to same sex marriage nor to I have ill feelings towards those who support same sex marriage. Mostly I try and live my faith, respecting other people understanding that I am but a man and in no position to offer judgement to others or unsolicited advice. The Bible society and Coopers however have a right to encourage people to engage in respectful conversation about the most important piece of literature ever written. Peace and Goodwill Scottie Valley Brew PS back to brewing and brew talk for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ruddager Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 ... the aim of this whole process is to get people to actually listen to each other' date=' to see things from the other person's perspective.[/b'] . That's all well and good, but how long would you listen to a holocaust denier or flat Earther trying to insert their agenda into state policy before you got sick of what they are saying? The notion that all ideas should be given equal credence is how anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers get their rubbish propagated through the media. The evidence that the Bible (in particular the new testament) is historical fact is irrefutable it has been tested by literary scholars and verified in the writings of Roman and Greek historians. Do you believe in the bible literally? Adam and Eve, global flood, the whole works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefy1525229962 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Thanks for the post Ruddy, I wholeheartedly agree with your OP. If this is indeed true, it greatly diminishes Coopers in my eyes. * Look at Mother Nature' date=' which I like to think of as my God. Cows need Bulls, Bitches need Dogs, Hens need Cocks, Cannabis seeds need Male and Female too. Nature is the way it is and we cannot change it, no matter how hard we try. Nature needs to reproduce and same sex marriages cannot do that. Sorry but that is the way it is. Any problems then ask your God or creator or whoever made you.[/quote'] Yes, let's look at mother nature, because homosexuality is absolutely rampant through the animal kingdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals You have a very dim view of biology and evolution if you think that survival of a species is determined solely by its ability to pop out sprog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I watched the video. The Christian guy's argument that heterosexual marriage is good because it is more diverse gave me a giggle. He was trying so hard to sound inclusive, and politically correct, while arguing for exclusive rights to marriage for heterosexuals. In Canada same sex marriage did not become legal until the courts forced the government to change the law, because the traditional definition of marriage was in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is part of our constitution. This happened while public opinion was still very much divided. Once same sex marriage became law, public opinion became generally supportive rather quickly. Now about the only people who still oppose it are fundamentalist religious groups, and even they have resigned themselves to the situation. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Pirate Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 How did we stray onto just 1 of the many prohibitions contained within the old testament ? I'm currently wearing clothes made from more than a single fibre i recently had a hair cut ( short on the sides ) i shaved this morning i often planted more than 1 type of seed within a single field I've held back employee wages overnight i've borne a grudge and still do i have slaughtered , dressed and eaten animals without a cloven hoof ( no hanky panky though ) I love seafood even if it doesn't have fins or scales oh ... i often work on the sabbath as well I'm not going to start attacking any of the members here , whatever they believe . Dr Tim is very welcome to believe or not as he sees fit , i did watch the video and thought it was a decent conversation between rational people willing to see the other side of an issue and that should be encouraged . Fundamentalist religion has a lot to answer for , how many lives have been ended simply because they worship differently ? This still continues today in the middle east and China and spills over to the rest of the world . I believe one of the reasons the environmental impact of our industrial society is often ignored is that many believe that God has given us this wonderful little speck of rock in an amazing and expanding universe to use as we see fit , if we break it then he'll just fix it magically . Rant over and just love each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefy1525229962 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 In Canada same sex marriage did not become legal until the courts forced the government to change the law' date=' because the traditional definition of marriage was in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is part of our constitution. This happened while public opinion was still very much divided. Once same sex marriage became law, public opinion became generally supportive rather quickly.[/quote'] As an Australian who has lived in Canada for 8 years now, I can only point my compatriots to this notion and say this is absolutely spot on. People soon realise the sun still rises and sets, the moon still waxes and wanes, and that nobody ever has caught "the gay". * FWIW, Coopers is denying any sponsorship of this 'advert'. They are not denying the cans that celebrate the Bible Society's 200 year anniversary. Seems like a reasonable, if a bit odd, decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I suppose people are more vocal against religion these days because there isn't the fear of being killed for it like there was historically, at least not in Western countries. Questioning and criticism of ideas where appropriate is healthy, just because an idea is of religious origin doesn't exempt it from that. It's also one reason why more and more people are slowly turning their backs on religion. It just doesn't have the importance or control that it once did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristinaS1 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Interesting that Coopers are distancing themselves from the video. So they should. Not sure I believe they were unaware of what was planned though. To those of you in Australia: I'd be very interested to know which Bible verses are printed on the packaging. Can anyone help? I am not advocating going out and buying samples, just take a picture of the verse(s) in the store and post it. Cheers, Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Probably John (or Austin) 3:16; and then Stone Cold Steve Austin would proceed to smash the cans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy-o Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Probably John (or Austin) 3:16; and then Stone Cold Steve Austin would proceed to smash the cans Ezekiel 25:17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he' date=' who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee! *necks a cold one*[/i'] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gag Halfrunt Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Probably John (or Austin) 3:16; and then Stone Cold Steve Austin would proceed to smash the cans Ezekiel 25:17 The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he' date=' who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee! *necks a cold one*[/i'] Thats not a bible quote, its Samuel L Jackson.(I heard it myself on the telly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Von Blotto Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Should see the backlash on their Facebook page... the comments here are rather tame by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph1malph Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I watched the video. The Christian guy's argument that heterosexual marriage is good because it is more diverse gave me a giggle. He was trying so hard to sound inclusive' date=' and politically correct, while arguing for exclusive rights to marriage for heterosexuals. In Canada same sex marriage did not become legal until the courts forced the government to change the law, because the traditional definition of marriage was in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is part of our constitution. This happened while public opinion was still very much divided. Once same sex marriage became law, public opinion became generally supportive rather quickly. Now about the only people who still oppose it are fundamentalist religious groups, and even they have resigned themselves to the situation. Cheers, Christina. [/quote'] To splinter the argument even further, I am dead set against any rights charter for this very reason. Seems a group of high court judges overruled and dictated terms to the elected parliament! Seems to me that the judges are more powerful. That's not right I don't think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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