Yeast volume for starter

[ImaginativeName]

This is what I harvested from my homebrand RCCCY 23L batch

 

Still has some settling to do, but that doesn't look like much to me?

 

The darker bits, would that be trub, or dead yeast?

 

I'm not sure how much of this I should use for a starter, for a 23L batch.

[ImaginativeName]

I'm trying to find out how many grams or millilitres a typical vial of yeast is, if anybody has an answer for that, I'll just wing it from there.

[Greenyinthewestofsydney]

You would probably find that would do a 23L batch easy!!! The concentration of yeast in slurry depends on a few things but around 2bn cells per ml or so is a good start so if you have 100ml of slurry there which looks like you do then it would do a 23L batch of ~1.050 wort.

 

If you were making starters from it it could make 20 or so 1L starters..

 

I sometimes use Slurry if I do back to back batches of the same recipe which I do from time to time. If its a different recipe I will make a starter.

[Otto Von Blotto]

How much of the yeast cake from the Homebrand brew did you take and put into the bottle? When taking from yeast cakes like that it's probably easier to just go and steal 1/4 to 1/3 of it and pitch the lot into the next batch than worry about exact volumes or cell counts or making starters from it. If it's stored for months then a starter should be done but if you're using it within a couple of weeks or whatever, then no need.

 

FYI, the White Labs vials and the Wyeast smack packs contain 100 billion cells at packaging. Use a calculator such as www.yeastcalculator.com to work out the viability from the date of manufacture, which will also work out the size starter you need if making one.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[ImaginativeName]

I'm not sure that's 100mL Greeny, it's a 1.25L bottle.

 

I took the whole cake Kelsey, poured it into a bottle, let that sit for about 10 minutes, then decanted into another bottle, that's why I say, it doesn't look like much to me.

 

I'm wondering if I should just pitch the whole lot?

 

Approx how many grams or millilitres of yeast would those 100 billion cells be?

[Otto Von Blotto]

IN that case I'd just pitch the whole lot of the yeast into the next brew. Normally you wouldn't pitch an entire yeast cake but given you waited for it to settle and then decanted, the yeast in the pictured bottle won't be anywhere near the entire yeast cake worth, so you won't be over pitching.

 

The 100 billion cells in those WLP/Wyeast things vary because they don't package them the same way. The WLP vials are about 30mL or something, but the Wyeast smack packs are approx. 125mL.

[ImaginativeName]

In she goes then.

I'll pitch it tomorrow.

 

Got old mate coming to stay for a couple of days, fridge is stocked, let the good times roll.

 

Cheers

 

JP

[ChristinaS1]

I took the whole cake Kelsey' date=' poured it into a bottle, let that sit for about 10 minutes, then decanted into another bottle.[/quote']

 

Not sure why you'd let it sit for 10 minutes and then decant into another bottle. I mean, I know a lot of people do, so it is understandable in that sense, but I think you loose more than you gain doing that. The only reason to decant is to "clean" it up, but you are never going to be able to taste what you decant anyway, and any dead yeast in there is food for the live ones....I'd be worried about pouring off viable yeast.

 

I am curious, what was the temp of the beer when you harvest the slurry, was it fermentation temp? And how long was it in the fermenter before you collected it?

 

Here is an interesting chart from White Labs. It is important to note that the time frames only apply for beer at fermentation temp:

 

http://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Flocculation_help.pdf

 

I have read that for ale yeast one should wait a week before harvesting slurry from the yeast cake, and for lagers two weeks, but I can't remember where I read that. Looking at the White Labs chart it would seem prudent to wait 15 days no matter whether ale or lager, to get the medium floccers as well....

 

As you know Kelsey saves slurry from starters. He lets his starters ferment out and then cold crashes for a couple of days before decanting. Cold crashing would no doubt speed up the flocculation process, but by how much? Kelsey can speak for himself, but I think he has mentioned his yeast becomes more flocculant with each generation, although apparently it still attenuates well. That being the case he must still be getting at least some of the medium floccers with his cold crashing process.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[ImaginativeName]

Monkey see, monkey do.

 

I don't really know what I'm doing, I'm just copying what I've seen.

 

I won't bother decanting the next lot, I'm fine with keeping it simple, especially if it works better.

[ChristinaS1]

Monkey see' date=' monkey do.

 

I don't really know what I'm doing, I'm just copying what I've seen.

 

I won't bother decanting the next lot, I'm fine with keeping it simple, especially if it works better.[/quote']

 

Well don't let me make you feel bad. You did exactly what Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff say to do in their book "Yeast." I just happen not to agree with it.

 

You've heard of "Don't fear the foam," when it comes to Starsan? Well I say, "Don't fear the trub."

Extract brewers don't get much trub anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[ImaginativeName]

I guess I was just trying to keep the taste reasonably neutral, but I suppose there's not much in there, especially going into 23L

[Otto Von Blotto]

As you know Kelsey saves slurry from starters. He lets his starters ferment out and then cold crashes for a couple of days before decanting. Cold crashing would no doubt speed up the flocculation process' date=' but by how much? Kelsey can speak for himself, but I think he has mentioned his yeast becomes more flocculant with each generation, although apparently it still attenuates well. That being the case he must still be getting at least some of the medium floccers with his cold crashing process.

[/quote'] What I do with my starters is to let them ferment out or close enough to it, and then stir the whole thing up again on the stir plate for a few hours before harvesting so it's as evenly mixed as possible, then fill the jar. At this point the jar goes into the fridge where they are kept, and the rest of the starter in the flask goes into the brew fridge, or the keg fridge if there's room for it. I guess this mixing up process helps harvest a reasonably even amount of different floccing level cells. I haven't quite worked out why the yeast flocculates more with each generation though. Given they still ferment out perfectly fine I'm not complaining about it, but it is interesting.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Waylon]

Well Ive just done my first starter for the year using 450g Ldm to 4.5 litres on a stir plate using WLP001 yeast

 

Correct me if im wrong but this should be good for a 72 litre batch...

 

What I will is wait until the High Krusan subsides on the stir plate then chill in fridge until brew day

[ImaginativeName]

Everything about this gig is interesting, actually, it's fascinating.

 

4.5g Waylon??

[Waylon]

Hey Mate,

I meant to type 450g Ldm to 4.5 Litres well picked up mate!

And covers 72 litres which is perfect as I make: 60-70 Litre batches

[ChristinaS1]

Well Ive just done my first starter for the year using 450g Ldm to 4.5 litres on a stir plate using WLP001 yeast

 

Correct me if im wrong but this should be good for a 72 litre batch...

 

With your batch sizes the Shaken Not Stirred isn't appropriate; it is geared to 19L batches. In your case' date=' a stir plate does make sense. [img']wink[/img]

 

To answer your question, your starter should be good, depending on your gravity and the age of the yeast, as I am sure you know.

 

With the heat in Australia at this time of year, how it was handled during transport is another factor to keep in mind. Do you live within driving distance of your HBS?

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[ChristinaS1]

As you know Kelsey saves slurry from starters. He lets his starters ferment out and then cold crashes for a couple of days before decanting. Cold crashing would no doubt speed up the flocculation process' date=' but by how much? Kelsey can speak for himself, but I think he has mentioned his yeast becomes more flocculant with each generation, although apparently it still attenuates well. That being the case he must still be getting at least some of the medium floccers with his cold crashing process.

[/quote'] What I do with my starters is to let them ferment out or close enough to it, and then stir the whole thing up again on the stir plate for a few hours before harvesting so it's as evenly mixed as possible, then fill the jar. At this point the jar goes into the fridge where they are kept, and the rest of the starter in the flask goes into the brew fridge, or the keg fridge if there's room for it. I guess this mixing up process helps harvest a reasonably even amount of different floccing level cells. I haven't quite worked out why the yeast flocculates more with each generation though. Given they still ferment out perfectly fine I'm not complaining about it, but it is interesting.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

Just clarifying, when you go to pitch it, do you decant off anything off? If so, that may explain it.

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Beerlust]

I took the whole cake Kelsey' date=' poured it into a bottle, let that sit for about 10 minutes, then decanted into another bottle.[/quote']

 

Not sure why you'd let it sit for 10 minutes and then decant into another bottle. I mean, I know a lot of people do, so it is understandable in that sense, but I think you loose more than you gain doing that. The only reason to decant is to "clean" it up, but you are never going to be able to taste what you decant anyway, and any dead yeast in there is food for the live ones....I'd be worried about pouring off viable yeast.

If you pour slurry into a bottle/container the yeast is actually the last of all physical matter to fall to the bottom. Other unfermentable materials such as hop & grain matter are the first to hit the bottom of the container. In this 10-20 minutes under ambient conditions a fair whack of that separation will have occurred with the bulk of the healthy yeast still remaining in suspension & the trub being at the base of the container.

 

With each rinse what you are pouring off into the next container is primarily the yeast in suspended liquid, & leaving the physical matter & dead yeast behind.

 

Try not to confuse this process with decanting fermented beer off of yeast that has dropped from suspension & already compacted.

 

Cheers,

 

Lusty.

[ChristinaS1]

Right Lusty. Forgive me, I might be a bit confused. I use the sloppy slurry method myself and don't decant anything off.

 

When rinsing slurry I guess the standard procedure* is to pour off and discard the watery stuff on the top, decant and save the stuff in the middle, and discard the stuff on the bottom? Kelsey hasn't answered yet, but I was under the impression that when he pitches his starter after cold crashing, he pours off the watery stuff at the top and pitches the remainder? In both cases, how can you be sure when you pour off the watery top layer that you aren't pouring off viable, less flocculant yeast?....If it were me I wouldn't want to discard the watery stuff at the top.

 

Getting back to rinsing slurry, I still think it is not a good idea to throw out the dead yeast. It is a valuable resource. That is the same stuff in Wyeast Nutrient Blend, Fermaid K, Danstar Servomyces, and HBS generic yeast "energizer."

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

 

* White and Zainasheff.

 

 

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yes, the majority of the "beer" on top of the yeast in the flask is decanted off and I leave a small amount behind to make it easier to stir up the yeast cake for pitching into the batch. I do the same thing when pitching a harvested jar into a starter too, although these jars often sit in the fridge for a month or two, so there would be less cells in the "beer" on top.

 

No doubt there are yeast cells in the decanted beer because unless you filter it there will always be yeast cells in suspension even if you can't physically see them. However, given the beer above the yeast cake that gets decanted off is essentially clear, I don't think there'd be many in it, not enough to worry about in terms of pitching rates anyway. It doesn't really seem likely that this tiny amount of cells compared to the whole yeast cake would affect the floccing rate as much as what occurs over the generations either. I think something else is at work there.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[ChristinaS1]

Okay, thanks Kelsey.

 

Slight change of subject. I am just reading in the "Yeast" book that lagers should not be re-pitched as many generations as ales: 3 or 4 for lagers vs 8 to 10 for ales. Any idea why?

 

Cheers,

 

Christina.

[Otto Von Blotto]

No idea Christina. As you know, I've been re-pitching a smack pack of 2001 Urquell lager yeast since April 2015 so it's obviously gone through way more than 3 or 4 generations. I might make the next batch with it its last though, because I'd rather not brew a crappy batch of pilsner and I have lost track a bit of how many generations it's actually up to. I'll get some 2278 or one of the other ones I had planned to try out next.

[ImaginativeName]

I guess the only way to really know, is to end up with a batch that's a little "off"?

 

I think I may have asked this before, but when you reserve some of your starter, is it not really a progression to the next generation?

 

I'm not sure if that makes sense, I'm really tired.

Haha!

 

There's a thread in here where Paul talked about a yeast he's been using for many years.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yeah, I did that with US-05 last year, just kept re-using it until it produced a batch that was full of off flavours. That was gen 10 I think, so in future I've decided no more than 7 gens with that yeast. The 2001 hasn't produced a dodgy one yet, but off flavours in a pilsner would be worse than in a pale ale. At least in a pale ale there's a lot of hops and whatever to somewhat offset it.

 

I think I get what you mean... when I make a starter from a fresh pack, I call that generation 1. So, what's in the harvested jar is gen 1. Then next time it gets used and thrown into another starter, what's grown is gen 2 and what's in the harvested jar is gen 2. And it just keeps going like that until I replace the yeast with a new one.

[ImaginativeName]

So in essence, the only point of difference between harvested cake, and saved starter, would be that the starter is cleaner?

 

I think I make have to make a rule to not go past a certain generation, the idea of tipping a batch really hurts my feelings.

 

On a side note, I'm witnessing just how much yeast can sit in suspension, volume on the bottom looks to be around twice the size now.