Going all grain. advice wanted

[Corksniffer]

Thanks guys,

 

Overnight!! Shiesh.. what will that do to the final bitterness? Is that going to be ok?

 

Alright, I'll take that advice and just buy the urn. May as well get a chiller while we're at it! Ha. It's more than I intended on outlaying but if you're right then it'll be worthwhile. Just think of the incredible styles I could make! Stuff you can't even buy here. Potential problem is: Darwin tap water for the chiller comes out around 40 degrees. . or are there 240v types? How bout frozen water bottles to slosh around in there?

[Corksniffer]

Also, do I boil in the urn too, or is it purely for mashing? This is all too much for me today!

[Otto Von Blotto]

You might be better off just throwing it in cubes than trying to chill it when the groundwater temp is that high. It'd be more trouble than it's worth.

 

As for the bitterness, it does increase slightly but the thing is once the wort drops below about 80C, there isn't really any more bitterness being extracted. So, no it doesn't keep getting more bitter the whole time it drops to room temp

 

The urn is used for mashing and boiling yes. You can either start with the entire volume of water needed (usually around 34/35 litres), or mash in a little less water and top it up by sparging the grain bag. I use the former method myself as it's a little simpler.

[Corksniffer]

Well, the Wife just bought be a 38l crab cooker! It has a pull out bucket strainer

http://www.raysoutdoors.com.au/Product/Wild-Country-Crab-Cooker/232887

She worked in sales for years at a commercial catering co. Says their urns aren't designed to boil cause too hot for coffee and I've seen alot of YouTube BIABers using these. She says our gas cooktop has no problems boiling one so I'll take her word for it and keep everyone posted

 

You've just given me a tip too: measure 23l BEFORE boiling in the new pot, otherwise I won't kknow

 

Thanks again for your great help so far!

[Bolchy]

Hey folks. Sorry i went awol. Life has been absolutely mayhem lately. Finally got a chance to do another biab minimash today. Thought i mighy try a different tactic to control the ibu. I have a 15l cube from a fwk. So i mashed and boiled enough in my urn to end up with a full cube to go no chill. That is in the fridge at the moment. Then i will do a 8 litre boil in a day or two using ldme and the hops. Then i can get it cooled very quick in the fv mixing the cube and the boil. I know its not the most efficient way but i thought i could try it as a different approach. Especially as i havent fully finalised the hop bill. Theres 850gm of hops in the freezer. But its a pale ale. So maybe a cascade sumco and pacifica combo?. Will let you know how that boil setup works out though.

[Otto Von Blotto]

Headmaster uses one of those crab cookers for his AG brewing, so you should be able to get some tips from him on use of it.

 

Not sure if the urns aren't designed to boil but they certainly do a bloody good job of it. The one I use is a Crown and the temp dial goes up to 110C. Obviously you wouldn't have the thing set that high for a tea or coffee but yeah, they do boil without any trouble, and quite vigorously too.

 

You'll want to start the boil at about 33 litres give or take. This is to allow for losses to boil off and kettle trub. Afterwards you simply fill the cube or chill it down and fill the fermenter until that trub starts to get into the tap outlet. You don't want this crap in your FV.

 

 

[Corksniffer]

Thanks Kels'

 

I'm looking at installing a ball valve tap on the bottom like another poster on page 1 or 2 here linked to. If I don't get one between now and then though I've thought about straining it through the clean ABIAB bag

 

I don't understand this no cool BIAB, don't even know what a cube actually is? But it sounds like some things have to be modified within the original recipe?

[Otto Von Blotto]

Thanks Kels'

 

I'm looking at installing a ball valve tap on the bottom like another poster on page 1 or 2 here linked to. If I don't get one between now and then though I've thought about straining it through the clean ABIAB bag

 

I don't understand this no cool BIAB' date=' don't even know what a cube actually is? But it sounds like some things have to be modified within the original recipe? [/quote']A ball valve is an excellent addition to any kettle, it just makes things so much easier.

 

No chilling is easy. All you need is a cube (pictured below) and some silicone hose to run from the ball valve into the bottom of the cube. All you do is once the boil is finished, let the wort sit for 15-20 minutes in the pot/urn/whatever, to allow the trub to settle out, and then open up the ball valve about 1/3 of the way and drain the hot wort into the cube. When it's full, or the kettle trub starts flowing in, shut off the ball valve and seal up the cube. Any air in the cube should be squeezed out before sealing it up. It does affect bitterness a little bit, but the hop schedules can be altered to suit. The best way to do it in my mind is to work out hop schedules to suit your own tastes rather than following hard and fast rules.

 

This cube is a 25 litre cube, but I also have a couple of 20 litre ones.

 

 

 

 

 

[Corksniffer]

Ha, excellent mate! Cheers for sharing that. Seems like a great idea actually and I imagine that by using a longer hose and slow flow-rate the line would actually have quite a chance to cool itself off so by the time it's been siphoned you'd drop quite a lot of transient heat. Thinner the hose, the better the cooling efficiency rate 'should' be

[Otto Von Blotto]

The idea is actually to keep it as hot as possible to keep it as sanitary as possible, but the slow flow rate is more to stop the kettle trub getting disturbed by the movement of the wort out through the ball valve.

 

I've brewed like this since I started AG, the convenience factor keeps me doing it, as like I did on Thursday I can brew a batch while the FV is full of another batch, and keep the wort stored in the cube until the FV is free.

[Corksniffer]

Well, can't argue with that. Where might I find one of these cubes?

[Corksniffer]

You know, I have a spare FV. Wonder if that will handle hot wort for cooling? I could put it in the brew fridge until pitching? I understand this kinda defeats the purpose of potential storage for later but it's an option nonetheless (way too excited to get this brew fermenting to store for now!)

[Otto Von Blotto]

It'll handle it, they're both made from HDPE. The only issue might be the headspace in it - although if you drain the hot wort into the fermenter, close it up and then pitch the yeast pretty well as soon as it gets to the pitching temp, you should be pretty sweet.

 

Camping shops usually sell the cubes, though.

[Corksniffer]

Unreal mate, definitely be grabbing one of those! It'll be handy to make a wort knowing you don't necessarily have to worry too much about getting it cooled and pitched same day. Sure I'll be in the mood for making wort on a whim when I feel like doing so occasionally like you mention. Even if it's just late or something by the time the boil finishes. Takes any stress off and that's the way I like brewing to be. Stress free and enjoyable. It stops being a hobby if you're not having fun

[Corksniffer]

Sorry to keep bugging you Kels' just wondering, I know you're big on pilsners. I've been snooping around for a good simple recipe I could buy the grain/hops and yeast now for so that I have something else to get started on once the first one's out of the fermenter. Do you have any suggestion? One I'm really liking now is Temp Brewing's 'Powerstance Pilsner' which says it's made from 100% German pills malt and noble hops. I'm not sure if that's exactly what the malt is called, if there's a substitute(s) or hops and hop additions (Tettnanger, Saaz, Hersbrucker?). Only thing I could assume is maybe an S23 yeast

 

Hopefully you might have an idea. I'll stop now. Think that's about enough for one day!

[Otto Von Blotto]

Yup, stress free brewing is what it's all about. I'd get the shits pretty quickly if I had to schedule brew days and fermentations to line up perfectly with each other just to be able to brew. My time isn't that flexible. It's much more convenient for me to be able to just do a brew on a Saturday when I have one free, or do what I did earlier this year and will be again after new years and brew 3 or 4 batches in a few days to get some brews stockpiled and weekends freed up more.

 

Pilsners aren't all created equal. A German pilsner is different to a Bohemian pilsner, for instance. I mainly brew Bohemian pilsners as I enjoy them the most. These are brewed with Bohemian pilsner malt, a little bit of melanoidin and acidulated malt, and hopped exclusively with Saaz. Fermented with Wyeast 2001 Urquell at 10C and they turn out really nice.

 

That one you mention I'm not really familiar with, but German pils malt is easy to get. Weyermann pilsner malt would be stocked by most decent brew shops I'd imagine. As for the hops, noble hops doesn't really narrow it down but the four varieties classed as noble hops are Saaz, Hallertau, Tettnanger and Spalt. So I guess you've got a 25% chance of picking the right one, but in reality any of them would make a decent single hop lager/pilsner. I have a Hallertau hop plant growing in my backyard, which I was able to get enough flowers off last season for a late boil addition in a lager brew. It turned out very nice.

 

Doing a bit of Googling actually reveals this about the Powerstance pils: ...full flavoured Pilsner with a slight malt sweetness and firm spicy noble bitterness from the use of Hallertau and Spalt noble hops.

 

So there you go, for a 23L batch or thereabouts if aiming for the 5.1% ABV it's quoted as being, probably go with 4.5-5kg of the Wey pils malt, mash at about 64C for 90 minutes, and use Hallertau and Spalt as the hops. The only thing that isn't given away is how the hops are both used in the recipe. For yeast, you probably want something that finishes clean and crisp. S-189 sounds like it'd be better in the dried yeast products than S-23, but I'm pretty sure 189 only comes in 500g bricks at the moment . In the liquid category there are a few; Wyeast 2000, 2001, 2035, 2042, 2278 or their White Labs equivalents. You'd need a starter for those ones though.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

 

[Corksniffer]

Wow man, thanks for the info. This AG game is a whole nother' kettle isn't it. Really looking forward to this!

 

Going to be fun honing recipes. I have very little on qty hops that should be used in the first experimental brew but might try find one of those IBU calculators to help take some guesswork out, It'll give me something else to explore (by God there's plenty of things I need to learn) that'll come in handy alot. I wasn't even aware we could buy those yeasts in Australia! Wyeast is one I hear loads of Yanks using but could never find myself (even on Ebay, they were very expensive to ship anyway) learned that the liquid yeast offers far superior variety than dried can. Guess I'll find them at good brew stores online.

 

Thats another reason I decided on buying a recipe kit from National because they specified whirlfloc (completely new to me) and all 'minerals' the recipe requires (news to me too) I don't know if this is something I need to keep on hand when buying grains and everything seperate so this should help somewhat. Finding even with all this great help here There's even still things you kinda have to go through yourself like type of gear you settle on, learning about what's on offer and what actually does what. Really is so much more in depth than simple kit brewing. I don't know how AGers manage to keep a straight face talking with kit guys actually! Haha, jokes but you know what I'm saying

[Mark D Pirate]

It's all about what you want to drink at the end of the day .

 

The AG brewers i know don't smirk when talking to kit or extract guys , if they did i doubt i'd talk to them .

As far as the mineral salts added it depends on what water you're starting with , working from rain water or distilled water makes life easy since you just add everything you need

town water can vary so what works for me may not work for you

Dried yeast can work just fine S-189 is available in 11.5 g packs now , could use 34/70 as well since you're shipping it so far

Will pay to learn how to build up your own starters and save yeast for later use as buying liquid strains gets expensive real quick

[PB2]

I don't know how AGers manage to keep a straight face talking with kit guys actually! Haha' date=' jokes but you know what I'm saying[/quote']

[Otto Von Blotto]

I use a program called Beersmith for all my recipe building, it's free for 21 days but then you have to buy a key for it, which is about $25 I think. One off payment though. I saved the key code in an email so I can just enter it in when the time comes to put the program on a new computer. It can be a bit daunting at first until you get the hang of it but it is a really good program; there are other ones out there on the net that might be a bit easier at first like Brewers Friend for example.

 

Creating and honing recipes is a lot of the fun for me for AG brewing too. And just the whole process of making a brew from scratch I find fun too. It's a bit of an escape in a way. Yeah those yeasts are generally stocked by the bigger home brew stores (or the ones that have all the AG stuff) like NHB and Craftbrewer etc. If you can get S-189 in the smaller sachets now though, that might be easier. I'm sure it has a Wyeast equivalent but I'm not sure which strain it is.

 

Whirlfloc is used about 10 minutes out from the end of the boil, it basically helps coagulate and drop out all the proteins and crap in the wort (hot break), making it easier to keep it out of the cube/fermenter. Useful to have.

 

As Marko says, the minerals needed depend on what your water is like to begin with. I use distilled water with small amounts of minerals added back for all my pilsners because I find they turn out better with it. My tap water favours chloride over sulphate and doesn't contain much in the way of calcium either, so for hoppy beers I chuck in about 12g of gypsum to increase the calcium levels and sulphate levels to bring out the hops more. Your tap water is probably completely different though, so if you can find a water report for it, that will be useful down the track. I wouldn't worry too much about the water yet though, focus more on basic processes and learning how to construct recipes. Once you've got a good handle on that, then look into the water more.

 

I get where you're coming from about chatting to kit brewers but it doesn't worry me. I obviously prefer my AG beers over my kit and extract days but the thing for me is passing on information and helping those who are new to the game and wanting to learn about it. That's how I learned a lot of what I know now and it's nice to be able to help others in the same way.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

[Mark D Pirate]

I don't know how AGers manage to keep a straight face talking with kit guys actually! Haha' date=' jokes but you know what I'm saying[/quote']

 

Had a few awful AG beers over the years i bet Paul ?

i made a few grain batches i didn't share since they were pretty ordinary , some of my kits and bits beers were fantastic ....almost like the people that did the mashing really knew what they were doing .

 

Still insist that how the wort is treated is far more important than who did the mashing , i went AG because i wanted more flexibility in my product and after throwing my hat in the ring to swap a kit based beer with very experienced brewers i'm looking forward to seeing what these guys can do with cans of goo .

As far as recipes go we are spoiled for choice these days , look through the brew day threads for recipes from experienced brewers and try them out , make adjustments as needed to suit your tastes and equipment .

Can't go past doing some SmaSh recipes to learn what different malts and hops really bring to a beer

 

SmaSh = Single malt and Single hop

[Otto Von Blotto]

I've had a couple of ordinary batches from AG as well, which were entirely brewer fault Mainly recipe design that didn't work well, or processes mucked up somewhere along the line. The most recent one was a pale ale with US-05 yeast that had been re-used too many times and it threw a really awful phenolic like aroma and flavour. It was done deliberately though, to see how far I could take the yeast.

 

Another one that didn't turn out all that great was a pale ale with Northern Brewer hops used late in the boil, just didn't like the flavour that much. Same with Chinook on its own (works well in combo with other hops though). I also had a batch of red ale that was turned into a slushie during cold crashing which was below par. And a batch of Bohemian pilsner that tasted like a S&W Pacific Ale due to trying a different mash schedule that didn't work.

 

So yeah, AG doesn't automatically mean better beers, but if your processes and recipes are well done, the freshness of flavour is definitely better in my experience at least. That, the freedom and total control over the recipes, and the process itself are my favourite things about AG brewing.

 

Cheers

 

Kelsey

 

 

 

 

[Mark D Pirate]

Chinook on its own didn't inspire me much , used it in a SmaSh with MO and while it came out a drinkable beer i simply wasn't thinking about having another one

nothing wrong with it but just didn't grab me

Have a batch of a coopers pale ale atm and suffice to say i won't be sharing it , too many esters even though i brewed it cooler than many others do , may have hit my generational wall with that culture

 

Brewing AG i have to take all the blame for ordinary beers but at least get to take credit for the good ones !

[Corksniffer]

I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings about brewing kits Paul, I think you and Coopers make the best ones out so please don't be offended. I sometimes forget these forums are probably viewed by many more than I think. The Last thing I intend is to ruffle anyone's feathers so apologies if that was the case

 

Just logged on to say that, I'm having a Wicked Elf Kolsch. It's funny, the descrption states: 'made with German pilsner malt and noble hops' aroma I like but tastes horrible! Just funny because I've just said that I'm loving the Powerstance Pils made with that same malt and similar hops. Goes to show that you guys are correct in saying that just because it's AG doesn't mean it's going to be any good. I'm sure alot of folk love it but it's complete shite to me. Carbonation is way over the top too but I'm no Kolsch expert.

 

Here's a cool little article on extract and AG for anyone interested

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/11/getting-started-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now/

Merry Christmas everyone

[Corksniffer]

Turns out I couldn't quite wait.. had a really small amount of pilsner malt lying around that Oz Brew sells in BIAB style. It actually has no weight indication on the pack (which I always assumed was 300g for some reason) but second guessing this now (you'll see why in a minute) don't have gm scales yet but will do shortly. (This was a very small 1.5l wort)

 

Placed the grains into a pillow case and hit them with a hammer until my rather uneducated eye saw it was satisfied enough with the results (most grains were cracked to what I thought was a decent standard but I'm not so sure ..) and began mashing! @ 60 degrees. Found that wringing the bag tightly would deliver large shots of starchy sugary white stuff rather than pouring water through the grain bed in thus instance

 

So after the boil I figured it should go into hydro vessel. 1.012 sg ..! Ha. So if I do some rough calcs, 6kg grain for 1.050 @ 23l means for 1.5l the desired amount would be somewhere around 400gms. I had 100gms of questionably milled grain. The color is very pale, maybe a #1 on ebc guidelines. Like a White ale but is more pale green than anything now after hopping

 

I topped up the sg with simple sugar and honey, not going to be much flavour to the brew but it's pitched now anyway. Just used a little Coopers ale yeast. Hallertau 3% aa hops seemed too low as a bittering hop so threw a little POW into the boil too. It's just a small experiment so why not

 

I'm really not expecting anything from this first attempt but it was fun either way

 

Cheers!